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	[12:01] <lamont_r> mdz: will build as soon as I get home, test, and then push the fix and build in the DC. eta ~ 2 hours
	=== lamont_r heads out
	[12:13] <sivang> vmware's perl installer sucks badly
	[12:23] <mdz> sivang: yes, but does it break samba? :-)
	[12:24] <sivang> mdz : It needs kernel headers before, it wants to compile the kernel module
	[12:24] <sivang> mdz : this will take me some time, but I will not go to sleep before being able to tell you if it does.
	[12:25] <sivang> mdz : it first broke up on me and I had to clean files by hand..:-\|
	=== doko_ [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[12:26] <sivang> mdz : compiling now
	[12:27] <sivang> mdz : almost finished install
	[12:30] <sivang> mdz : what file am I supposed to look for?
	[12:31] <sivang> /etc/rc6.d/K19samba
	[12:31] <sivang> /etc/rc1.d/K19samba
	[12:31] <sivang> /etc/rc0.d/K19samba
	[12:32] <mdz> sivang: that looks normal
	[12:32] <mdz> i.e., not mangled
	[12:33] <sivang> mdz : I can remove my samba and reinstall it just to see if it makes through it, what do you say?
	[12:33] <sivang> (without purgin conf files ofcourse :)
	[12:33] <mdz> sivang: apparently, vmware has some integration with samba
	[12:33] <mdz> sivang: are you sure that you enabled this and it was activated?
	[12:33] <sivang> it uses samba to give access to the host's filesystem
	[12:33] <sivang> mdz : everything that just had samba in the name, I said yes.
	[12:34] <sivang> mdz : especially bridge networking thingies, and configure access to the host file system through samba
	[12:34] <mdz> it could be a different version of vmware which has the bug...it's just a guess, really
	[12:34] <mdz> I don't think it's a package in Ubuntu which causes this
	[12:37] <sivang> mdz : I can runleve 1 and back see if anything breaks
	[12:37] <mdz> sivang: the bug is that something deletes the /etc/rc?.d/K19samba links
	[12:37] <mdz> and creates broken /etc/rc?.d/K09samba links
	=== antonio_ [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[12:48] <antonio_> hi!
	[12:48] <lamont> moo
	[12:48] <antonio_> i've just installed ubuntu...
	[12:48] <antonio_> ... it's cool!
	[12:48] <antonio_> anyone knows how to install mono on it?
	[12:48] <lamont> antonio_: I think it's just a matter of adding universe (see /etc/apt/sources.list), and running synaptic
	[12:48] <antonio_> ok, thanx!
	[12:48] <antonio_> i'm so interested in configure grub ui, anyone knows where to touch in?
	[12:48] <sivang> mdz : you have a sn for vmware?
	[12:48] <antonio_> me?
	[12:48] <antonio_> i don't have it
	[12:48] <azeem> antonio_: gnome-systems-tools can configure grub AFAIK, though I believe that part of it is not shipped by ubuntu
	[12:48] <sivang> no I was asking mdz, as we are trying to reproduce a bug related to vmware and ubuntu
	[12:48] <antonio_> oks
	[12:48] <sivang> antonio_ : you might want to ask on #ubuntu, this is rather a development general discussion channel
	[12:49] <antonio_> ok, thanx!
	[12:49] <mdz> sivang: no, I do not
	[12:50] <sivang> mdz : ok, I'll register there
	[12:59] <amu> lamont: ping
	=== sivang [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[01:01] <lamont> ack
	[01:02] <amu> guess i got it, i think pentium 233mmx is a 386, livecd kernel has only support for >486
	[01:03] <lamont> huh? I thought mmx > 486, no?
	[01:04] <elmo_> anything with pentium in the CPU name is >= 586
	[01:04] <amu> compared both, installkernel is 386 with emu, live is 486 no C[C[C[C[C[C[C[C[Cemu
	[01:08] <pitti> mdz: so shall I do the security uploads tomorrow?
	[01:09] <mdz> elmo_: what's the status of the security queue?
	[01:09] <mdz> pitti: they should be peer reviewed first
	[01:10] <pitti> mdz: I took the patches from Debian, but I will just upload the packages to chinstrap
	[01:11] <pitti> mdz: http://chinstrap/~pitti/
	[01:11] <pitti> mdz: sorry, https of course
	=== sivang [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[01:16] <pitti> night everybody
	[01:16] <sivang> night pitti
	=== kylem wonders if lamont fixed mplayer
	[01:18] <mdz> amu: the live CD kernel is 2.6.7 + morphix stuff, the instal kernel is 2.6.8.1 + ubuntu stuff. they are entirely different kernels
	[01:18] <Kamion> mdz: what, we haven't updated the live kernel? boggle
	[01:18] <mdz> Kamion: it uses this very sketchy kernel module which was suspected to break under 2.6.8.1
	[01:22] <Kamion> oh, that overlay thing
	[01:24] <amu> mdz: is it possible to find it out with which command the kernel was build, make-kpkg ....
	[01:29] <lamont> kylem: after livecd ships
	[01:29] <kylem> lamont, lol, ok. :)
	[01:35] <mdz> I just had vim segfault on me on the live CD
	[01:35] <mdz> in mini_fo_rename
	[01:37] <amu> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 12672488 Oct 3 13:32 kernel-image-2.6.7_10.00.Custom_i386.deb is builded with scsci_multi_lun=y
	[01:38] <amu> #1995
	[01:38] <mdz> thanks
	[01:39] <chrisa> /sbin/init: 429: cannot open dev/console: No such file
	[01:39] <chrisa> fun
	[01:40] <amu> mdz: what was the problem with #1995 ?
	[01:41] <mdz> amu: perhaps alex fixed it and forgot to close the bug?
	[01:41] <mdz> amu: I opened it almost 3 weeks ago
	[01:42] <chrisa> ah, bug in the image
	[01:42] <amu> ok, should i diff it with the ubuntu kernel ? or closing the bug ?
	=== lupus_ [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[01:45] <amu> mdz: guess the problem was with nvidia-modules, why not running the same kernel ? right ?
	[01:45] <mdz> amu: diff it
	[01:45] <mdz> see if there are any other significant differences
	[01:46] <mdz> amu: as I said to Kamion above, the reason it isn't the same kernel is because of this mini_fo nastiness
	[01:46] <lamont> where is the '-' on a french keyboard?
	[01:48] <mdz> lamont: it's under computer->desktop preferences->(thing that looks like a keyboard)
	[01:48] <mdz> clavier or something
	[01:49] <amu> ^k, diff comes tomorrow
	[01:49] <lamont> was actually trying to type in a tty,
	=== lamont screams, finding empirical evidence (maybe) of why boot takes forever sometimes... have to double check
	[01:53] <doogie> lamont: it takes forever sometimes because someone told grub to boot windows?
	[01:54] <lamont> mdz: wrt the sources.list - do we want to move the mirrors off of p.u.o?
	=== sivang [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[01:54] <mdz> lamont: I was thinking more that those entries could be removed from the installed system. what's there?
	[01:56] <lamont> which entries?
	[01:57] <sivang> just tried to boot cd, loops back at the grub menu.
	[01:57] <sivang> (livecd)
	[01:57] <lamont> two sound devices (??) --> two esd's (definite) --> hang for a while.
	[01:57] <lamont> sivang: which CD?
	[01:57] <lamont> version
	[01:58] <sivang> warty-live-i386-20041021-06
	[01:58] <sivang> could I have again a bad burn?
	[01:58] <lamont> could be
	[01:58] <lamont> I believe that others have booted it successfully
	[01:58] <sivang> I guess nobody reported that ha?
	[01:58] <sivang> ok
	[01:58] <sivang> I'll give it another burn
	[01:58] <lamont> killing the ESD that's hanging out there during the "hang" (really a stall) gets us past that...
	[02:03] <lamont> mdz: so why doesn't locale-gen fix the perms itself?
	[02:07] <chrisa> Does linux-source-2.6.8.1 contain the .config used to generate the kernel images?
	[02:07] <lupus_> when will hoary repository open up?
	[02:09] <mdz> lamont: dunno. why does it end up with wrong permissions in morphix?
	[02:09] <lamont> still arguing with that, I fear
	[02:10] <amu> chrisa: nope, you get it from the image
	[02:10] <mdz> lamont: re: which entries, the sources.list entries
	[02:11] <lamont> yes
	[02:11] <mdz> lamont: I'm afraid uploading glibc is out of the question at this stage, so the permission thing will need to be fixed in the morphix side of things
	[02:11] <lamont> the ones that all point to p.u.o/~lamont/LiveCD
	[02:11] <lamont> could probably move to something more official-esque, eh?
	[02:11] <lamont> mdz: that was a granted assumption. Just grousing
	[02:12] <mdz> lamont: what packages are they expected to retrieve from ~lamont/LiveCD?
	[02:12] <lamont> none, unless you're building a liveCD
	[02:12] <mdz> I assume that only contains the morphix-specific packages, which aren't even installed in the mainmodule, are they?
	[02:12] <mdz> so they don't need to be present in the file on the live CD
	[02:13] <lamont> there are also 2? packagees from universe that are on the livecd, and present in LiveCD/warthog on the mirror
	[02:13] <lamont> but I got rid of pump...
	[02:14] <mdz> lamont: what's the other one?
	=== amu moves to bed; n8 -R *
	[02:15] <lamont> dialog :-(
	[02:15] <lamont> libpci1 is there for aumix
	[02:15] <lamont> (pump was #3.)
	[02:18] <mdz> fabbione: your gpg emails are full of CR/LFs still
	[02:18] <mdz> lamont: aumix is in universe too
	[02:19] <mdz> shouldn't need it, either. we have alsamixer
	=== lamont will build without it this pass
	[02:19] <elmo_> mm, neat, xmms still has that "playing at 1.5x speed" bug on my laptop. I rock at reporting bugs on time.
	[02:19] <lamont> dialog is also universe
	[02:20] <lamont> mdz: aumix is in base, not mainmod.
	[02:20] <lamont> which means it's there for hw detection crap, probably
	[02:21] <mdz> that also means it's fine if it's missing from /etc/apt/sources.list in mainmod
	=== Ferry [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[02:21] <lamont> yes.
	[02:21] <lamont> now I just have to figure out how to deal with that.
	[02:22] <mdz> lamont: if it's non-trivial, I don't care if it stays there
	[02:22] <mdz> there are certainly worse bugs at this point
	[02:22] <lamont> mdz: it's a mod to morphix-mmaker
	[02:22] <lamont> ==> no
	=== lupus_ [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	=== doko_ [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	=== hornbeck\|away [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	=== madduck [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	=== sladen [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	=== Kamion [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	=== sladen_ [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[02:25] <lamont> seb128 around?
	[02:25] <lamont> or jdub?
	[02:25] <lamont> or anyone who knows how esd gets launched?
	=== Kamion [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	=== lamont glares at the '&' character, pushes the localization bug to the top of the hill again
	=== madduck [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[02:28] <elmo_> yeah
	[02:28] <elmo_> meh. window focus is for lamers.
	[02:28] <lamont> follow the bouncing focus.
	[02:30] <lamont> in other unrelated news, my install DVD boots now.
	=== lamont consdiers a bug against d-i asking it to take Packages.gz when Packages doesn't exist.
	[02:31] <lamont> and, if the Packages file isn't mentioned in Release, to just bitch loudly and ask before using, rather than loop forever.
	=== rabidbt [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[02:54] <sivang> mdz : it works no problem so far, however I didn't try to remove and reinstall samba
	[03:06] <sivang> night all
	[03:07] <tseng> will there be security advisories on the main page?
	[03:10] <mdz> justdave: around?
	[03:10] <mdz> tseng: there's an 'errata' section under documentation; I imagine we'll put them there
	[03:11] <tseng> sure
	=== lamont burns another live cd, colorado edition
	[03:11] <lamont> no esd takers, eh?
	[03:12] <mdz> lamont: hmm?
	[03:13] <lamont> under conditions unknown, I find that the liveCD stalls with the X background, and a cursor.
	[03:13] <lamont> killing the running ESD at that point causes the system to finish coming up into gnome.
	[03:14] <lamont> (with esd running)
	[03:14] <lamont> there are errors/warnings in the main (f1) screen about another esd process already running
	[03:14] <tseng> i realize that bluefoxicy is a complete tool, but are any of you folks interested in hardening daemons
	[03:15] <tseng> ssp/pie
	[03:16] <tseng> http://www.trl.ibm.com/projects/security/ssp/
	[03:16] <mdz> lamont: I have seen no such behaviour
	[03:17] <lamont> maybe it's a vaio special, or something unique to the colorado edition
	[03:17] <lamont> brb
	[03:17] <mdz> tseng: there is some proactive security stuff on the list of proposed hoary feature goals
	[03:17] <tseng> mdz: yeah, bluefoxicy put it together
	[03:17] <tseng> if you mean the wiki page
	[03:18] <tseng> he is one of our user/trolls at hardened gentoo
	[03:18] <mdz> tseng: I mean the HoaryHedgehog page
	=== tseng sees SELinux on the list
	=== jamesh [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[03:31] <mdz> yes
	[03:39] <justdave> mdz: pong
	[03:46] <mdz> justdave: filed a bug (the live CD thing)
	[03:47] <justdave> ok, just saw that and replied
	[04:16] <daniels> mdz: #277699
	[04:16] <daniels> mdz: we don't care about PAE, yeah?
	[04:19] <jdub> ahr
	[04:19] <jdub> morning
	[04:19] <jdub> lamont: topic has the latest build?
	[04:19] <lamont> latest dc build, yes.
	[04:19] <lamont> I'm fixing localization right now, burning what I think is the last CD for that.
	[04:19] <lamont> then I need artwork from you, dude. Or we're gonna ship
	[04:19] <lamont> :0)
	[04:20] <lamont> mdz: anything besides localization that we want to get in before we ship?
	[04:20] <daniels> jdub: morning
	[04:20] <lamont> will work on understanding minifo as well tonight, but I think that's opportunistic dependiing on how bad it is
	=== benh [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[04:24] <benh> bob2: like this ? :)
	[04:24] <bob2> hehehe
	[04:25] <jdub> lamont: you want a final grub-gfxboot image?
	[04:25] <benh> so as I was saying on the other channel, it would be useful for you guys to send your old crappy outdated overpatches glibc down the gutter
	[04:25] <benh> and get something decent :)
	[04:25] <benh> ppc had NPTL/TLS support for a looong time now, but the debian glibc is just too old
	[04:27] <jdub> hey benh
	[04:27] <jdub> benh: i put your glibc request on the HoaryHedgehog feature goals list :-)
	[04:27] <lamont> jdub: if I don't get one, then the one I have is final... :-)
	[04:27] <benh> good :)
	[04:27] <jdub> lamont: it's fine, but it doesn't have anything up the top left
	=== jdub is not too concerned
	[04:27] <lamont> right. this is your chance, taken or not.
	[04:28] <lamont> just wanted to give our RELEASE MANAGER a chance to slip in one more change before release, and all that...
	[04:28] <jdub> how many minutes? :)
	[04:28] <jdub> haha
	[04:28] <tseng> thom: ping
	[04:28] <lamont> oh, I'd like to burn the final sometime within the next 3 hours or so.
	[04:28] <lamont> which means you have < 2 hours.
	[04:28] <jdub> tops
	[04:29] <benh> the main reason debian glibc is outdated is to support exotic archs
	[04:29] <tseng> thom: your NetworkManager initscript checks for /usr/bin/NetworkManager \|\| exit 0
	[04:29] <tseng> thom: NetworkManager is in sbin
	[04:29] <benh> amd64, x86 and ppc all benefit from a more recent drop, and especially ppc & ppc64
	[04:29] <benh> the main problem with glibc however is that there are no more releases afaik
	[04:30] <daniels> yeah, I was going to say
	[04:30] <benh> just a cvs and the "bugs of the day"
	[04:30] <daniels> we don't have mipsel to support
	[04:30] <benh> so you sort-of need to track your own tree, bringing in things from the cvs with caution
	[04:30] <jdub> boo hoo
	[04:30] <jdub> i want ubuntu on my qube
	[04:30] <jdub> it is my firewall ;)
	[04:31] <bob2> hehehe
	[04:31] <bob2> HoaryGoals - Support jdub's firewall.
	[04:31] <jdub> :-)
	[04:31] <jdub> and the linksys is mipsel
	[04:31] <jdub> though you probably wouldn't use glibc on it
	[04:31] <lamont> if we're supporting jdub's firewall, I want mine supported too!
	[04:31] <bob2> haha
	[04:31] <lamont> (hppa)
	[04:31] <daniels> WRTbuntu
	[04:32] <kylem> i heard someone speaking about an embedded ubuntu.
	[04:32] <bob2> and my alpha.
	[04:32] <lamont> jdub: what starts esd?
	[04:32] <daniels> ebuntu
	[04:32] <daniels> i love it
	[04:32] <jdub> lamont: gnome-session, i believe
	[04:32] <kylem> support my itanic. ;-)
	[04:32] <jdub> kylem: mdz has done something, dunno what though
	[04:32] <jdub> kylem: there are plans for something reasonably official, too, though
	[04:33] <jdub> lamont: my hppa is horribly hot and loud
	[04:33] <lamont> kylem: ia64 support is actually in the works
	[04:33] <kylem> lamont, i heard tbone speaking of it.
	[04:33] <lamont> jdub: mine's in the utility room
	[04:33] <jdub> haha, from mbp:
	[04:33] <jdub> "xdiskusage is a great little tool to show what is using up space on a disk.
	[04:33] <jdub> There is also Filelight which has a bit more eye-candy, but depends on KDE and so may be a bit counter-productive in freeing up disk space."
	[04:33] <lamont> jdub: so here's the thing with my vaio...
	[04:34] <lamont> esd sometimes gets launched twice (based on the complaints that it'salready running)... and gnome-splash gets delayed until either something like 3-5 minutes go by, or you jump into a vt and kill the esd that's in ps output...
	[04:34] <lamont> what needs to get h0rked?
	[04:35] <lamont> only one esd in the ps output: /usr/bin/esd -terminate -nobeeps -as 2 -spawnfd 17
	[04:35] <lamont> l10n happiness!
	[04:36] <jdub> lamont: what's in ~/.gnome2/session ?
	[04:36] <lamont> jdub: well, the whole directory gets nuked each boot, so I'd say the default...
	[04:37] <lamont> liveCD
	[04:37] <jdub> oh
	[04:37] <jdub> um
	[04:37] <lamont> there is an ac97 modem there as well as the sound device
	[04:37] <jdub> it's not a crazy morphix initscript, is it?
	[04:37] <lamont> don't think so...
	[04:37] <lamont> didn't see 'esd' anywhere in the scripts when I looked... what else should I grep for?
	[04:37] <jdub> so this is a general livecd problem, or just your vaio?
	[04:38] <lamont> mdz hasn't seen it, he has 2 sound devices.
	[04:38] <jdub> nothing, i don't htink
	[04:38] <lamont> it may even be specific to the colorado edition
	=== lamont waits for his japanese boot to finish, then he'll reboot to check some things
	[04:38] <lamont> jdub: funny thing is, it doesn't do it every time. only some times.
	[04:39] <lamont> yep. that's japanese, alright.
	[04:40] <lamont> "Computer" didn't get translated, though.
	[04:40] <lamont> nor did a bunch of other stuff. feh
	[04:42] <jdub> we don't have an ubuntu alternate dimension yet
	[04:42] <jdub> so no japanese translations
	[04:42] <tseng> is there anything in debian initscripts to tell one service to start before another?
	[04:43] <jdub> no
	[04:43] <tseng> or just by the #'s in rc.d
	[04:43] <jdub> Sxx <-
	[04:43] <jdub> :)
	[04:43] <tseng> :) fair nuff
	[04:43] <jdub> don't go all gentoo on us ;)
	[04:43] <tseng> networkmanager wants to start before dbus
	[04:43] <lamont> jdub: _I_ can translate to japanese, so can jane.
	[04:43] <tseng> jdub, i was a gentoo devel for ~1 year
	[04:43] <jdub> lamont: we need to foster an alternate dimension though
	[04:43] <jdub> tseng: (i know)
	[04:44] <tseng> :P
	[04:44] <lamont> yeah
	[04:44] <lamont> gimp in japanese is interesting..
	[04:44] <bob2> tseng: we forgive you :-p
	[04:44] <tseng> heh.
	[04:44] <tseng> i found my way back to debian, thanks to the Mad Phat startup
	[04:44] <jdub> haha
	[04:45] <bob2> you should star in a community service announcement
	[04:45] <tseng> i converted a few people
	[04:46] <bob2> "I was once a Debian user, then I fell into the wrong crowd...started using gentoo, compiling things from source, using -O99 and -fomit-instructions...then I found Ubuntu. They helped me go back to actually using my machine, not just building stuff over and over. Thanks, Mad Phat Startup!"
	[04:46] <tseng> haha, yeah
	[04:47] <tseng> the gentoo user base is pretty heinous, that extends to some of the development community as well these days
	[04:49] <tseng> brb, added NetworkManager at S25
	[04:49] <jdub> bob2: "this has been a community service announcement (cough sponsored by canonical)"
	=== lamont isn't familiar with -fomit-instructions
	[04:49] <bob2> bwahaha
	[04:53] <tseng> the straw that broke my back was
	[04:53] <tseng> someone thought it was a good idea to add gcc 3.4 to the "unstable" distro
	[04:53] <daniels> to be fair, when we put in gcc 3.2, it broke Xau at -O2
	[04:54] <daniels> so you couldn't actually start any X apps, unless you started with access control disabled
	[04:54] <daniels> this was on i386 and powerpc, where the build actually succeeded
	[04:54] <daniels> it failed on arm, mips, mipsel and m68k with an ICE, but that's not even the thrust of my argument here :P
	[04:55] <bob2> oh yeah, fun times
	[04:59] <jdub> wow, lots of comments on the LWN article
	=== lamont makes a new DC cd
	=== KeyserSoze [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[05:06] <kylem> one thing that would be a nice 'enterprise' feature from ubuntu, is the ability to configure nis/ldap during firstboot...
	[05:06] <bob2> "From what I hear Europe is about 5 to 7 years ahead of us in depravity"
	[05:06] <lamont> jdub: and they're largely scary replies...
	[05:07] <bob2> tjc is massively anti-ubuntu, whoever that is
	=== Keybuk [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	=== KeyserSoze [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[05:08] <lamont> kylem: there's plenty of room on the install CD to add a package or 3 to do just that...
	[05:08] <lamont> and point at the corporate mirror, and configure the corporate DNS/MTA/... config, etc.
	=== kylem nods.
	[05:09] <jdub> yeah, though we probably wouldn't ask the questions by default
	[05:09] <lamont> but then, that's customizing the CD, which is work for many
	[05:09] <jdub> you'd have to use kickstart or pre-seeding
	[05:09] <jdub> which would be reasonably appropriate anyway
	[05:09] <lamont> jdub: instead of expert, just boot 'corporate'
	[05:10] <jdub> we probably shouldn't have too many of those :)
	[05:10] <kylem> kickstart would be cool, heh.
	[05:10] <bob2> jdub: "the best thing verisign ever did..."
	[05:11] <jdub> bob2: loved that one :)
	=== KeyserSoze [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	=== KeyserSoze [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	=== KeyserSoze [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[05:25] <Keybuk> Does anyone else find it amusing we're DistroWatch #3 now ?
	[05:26] <Keybuk> (though I expect that's an artificial release-induced high, but still... <g>)
	[05:26] <jdub> for this month?
	[05:26] <Keybuk> yeah
	[05:27] <jdub> wow
	[05:28] <jdub> 12th on 3 months
	[05:28] <jamesh> It's probably because all the developers keep checking the distrowatch page to find the rank
	[05:28] <jamesh> (given the ranking is just based on page hits)
	=== jdub just looks at the ranking list, not the ubuntu page :)
	[05:29] <Keybuk> jamesh: the rank isn't given on the distrowatch page that gets counted
	[05:29] <lamont> Mandrake clearly has bots at work.. :-)
	[05:30] <jdub> X many million french people can't be wrong!
	[05:34] <lamont> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041022-04/warty-live--i386-20041022-04.iso
	[05:34] <daniels> 404
	[05:34] <lamont> doh.
	[05:34] <daniels> ah
	[05:34] <lamont> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041022-04/warty-live-i386-20041022-04.iso
	[05:35] <daniels> http://people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041022-04/warty-live-i386-20041022-04.iso
	[05:35] <lamont> bad paste
	[05:35] <daniels> yeah
	[05:35] <daniels> GET OUT OF ARCH
	[05:35] <daniels> IT'S NOT TOO LATE
	[05:35] <lamont> daniels: I pasted that last little bit, picked up a spare -
	[05:35] <fabbione> morning
	[05:36] <daniels> fabbione: morning dude
	[05:36] <daniels> fabbione: see /msg
	[05:36] <fabbione> ah paste again
	[05:37] <fabbione> daniels: it's out of my buffer
	[05:38] <fabbione> mdz: i am using thunderbird
	[05:38] <fabbione> almost default settings
	[05:44] <fabbione> let me check them again
	[05:44] <fabbione> daniels: ^
	[05:44] <daniels> you want a repaste?
	[05:45] <fabbione> no
	[05:45] <daniels> ok ...
	[05:46] <fabbione> phoenix is far
	[05:46] <lamont> phoenix in the summer is nice.
	[05:46] <daniels> Mandrake: because 174 million French people can't be wrong!
	[05:46] <daniels> fabb ok
	[05:46] <lamont> s/summer/winter/
	[05:47] <fabbione> daniels: go for the palace. it's very close to the main train station
	[05:47] <daniels> ok
	[05:48] <daniels> hold one, which one's the palace?
	[05:48] <fabbione> Palace Hotel
	[05:48] <fabbione> Palace Hotel
	[05:48] <fabbione> Historic hotel in Copenhagens city square
	[05:48] <fabbione> Guests can book a range of treatments with the hotels masseuse, including deep tissue massage, cranio sacral massage, and healing; in-room treatments are ...
	[05:48] <fabbione> More hotel info
	[05:48] <bob2> wow
	[05:49] <bob2> can I come to the X sprint, too?
	[05:49] <fabbione> bob2: did you import X.org and xfrer86 into arch?
	[05:50] <daniels> palace is unavailable for part of it, plus $$ for some days
	[05:50] <daniels> like GBP167/night for the weekends :P
	=== lamont finds himself tempted to add a morphix-lamont package to the colorado edition of the livecd, with a gnome config that he can stand, etc, etc.
	[05:50] <bob2> fabbione: how many days until the sprint? ;)
	[05:50] <fabbione> daniels: the marmaid hotel is also ok in terms of distance
	[05:50] <daniels> bob2: starts on the 1st. get moving.
	[05:50] <fabbione> bob2: one week
	=== bob2 hurrys
	[05:52] <fabbione> daniels: 2604 is your
	[05:53] <bob2> copenhagen sounds like fun!
	[05:53] <daniels> fabbione: reassign it to me
	[05:53] <fabbione> daniels: we will look at bugs later on
	[05:53] <fabbione> useless to do it now
	[05:54] <daniels> ok
	[05:55] <daniels> fabbione: i'd say xserver-xfree86 tho ... just sanitise it right before you actually write it
	[05:55] <fabbione> daniels: well that info comes from xresprobe
	[05:55] <fabbione> i don't write anywhere the size of the monitor
	[05:55] <fabbione> but yeah
	[05:55] <fabbione> it's on the border
	[05:56] <daniels> ok, i'll put it on my xresprobe todo
	[05:56] <daniels> we can be doubly careful -- put it in two places :)
	[05:56] <fabbione> heheh
	[05:56] <jdub> hrm
	[05:57] <jdub> i have a difficult choice to make
	[05:57] <jdub> do i use hoary on my laptop, even though i really need it to be a stable machine, and will probably be using it for demonstrations
	[05:57] <daniels> jdub: seafood platter
	[05:57] <lamont> jdub: dual boot?
	[05:57] <daniels> oh, you're not deciding what to have for lunch.
	[05:57] <jdub> or do i use warty on my laptop, and test hoary on my desktop (which i rarely turn on these days)
	[05:57] <bob2> no, steak sandwich with the lot, hold the pineapple
	[05:57] <daniels> bob2: i find the seafood basket hard to fault
	[05:58] <lamont> jdub: you know that within 2 months you're gonna want to demo bleeding-edge hoary
	[05:58] <bob2> daniels: seafood sticks--
	[05:58] <daniels> jdub: i agree, dual-boot also
	[05:58] <daniels> jdub: MAD PHAT STARTUP
	[05:58] <jdub> i don't go for dual-boot
	[05:58] <jdub> i like those lines defined very strongly
	[05:58] <lamont> jdub: just keep the warty LiveCD around for demos, and run hoary????
	[05:58] <bob2> hoary, because you know lamont is right
	[05:59] <lamont> jdub: "warty is, like, _so_ 2004."
	[05:59] <jdub> lamont: hrrrrrm, that's amazingly tempting
	[05:59] <daniels> bob2: sounds like a commercial
	[05:59] <daniels> we need lamont fronting up to the cameras like 'hoary is the only tree i trust for my family.'
	[05:59] <bob2> espcially if we ever get X.ORG PACKAGES.
	[05:59] <bob2> hahaha
	=== lamont wonders if grumpy is a prognostication of mdz's mood by then?
	[05:59] <jdub> means i'll be dogfooding the development release all the time, which is half what i really want but a little bit what i don't want
	[06:00] <lamont> jdub: you can mount /home from the hard drive, you know...
	[06:00] <bob2> ho, hoary opened
	[06:00] <lamont> bob2???
	[06:00] <lamont> you mean the apt repositories?
	[06:00] <bob2> oh, no, it's just empty Packages files
	[06:01] <lamont> yeah - about 2 months ago, or so.
	[06:01] <lamont> elmo had some time one day, you see...
	[06:01] <lamont> I think it was oxford-conf timeframe
	[06:02] <bob2> ah
	[06:03] <lamont> there are hoary chroots on the buildd's that say 'aug 11', but I don't remember if they were real and happy then, or if my script was just leaving junk around in my optimism
	[06:03] <bob2> hehe
	[06:04] <bob2> will the hoary buildd's just start up with warty, and install newer stuff as things build-dep on it?
	[06:04] <lamont> I hate these: APIC error on CPU0: 40(40)
	[06:04] <lamont> but only because there are soo damn many of them.
	[06:05] <jdub> bob2: no, there's a few ways we could do it, not sure if we've decided yet
	[06:05] <jdub> - import all of sid, forgetting our patches
	[06:05] <jdub> - import sid, except for the stuff we've patched
	[06:06] <jdub> - wait until hct can merge our patches with sid
	[06:06] <jdub> etc.
	[06:06] <jdub> 1 and 2 are "distro team can keep working until hct is ready" solutions
	[06:06] <bob2> ah
	=== bob2 heads back to work, coincidentally
	[06:08] <jdub> hhe
	[06:08] <jdub> heh
	=== SuperLag [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[06:21] <SuperLag> The default install of Ubuntu installs a very modular kernel and I get a LOT of module errors when I boot. How can I clean that up? hw_random, pciehp, i82365, yenta are some examples... Gentoo will read /etc/modules.autoload.d/kernel-2.6 for a list of modules to be loaded (assuming you don't have hotplug enabled/installed).... does Ubuntu read a file also? I'm just wanting to clean that up some.
	[06:21] <fabbione> SuperLag: it makes no difference other than for estetich
	[06:21] <SuperLag> wartylog: estetich?
	[06:22] <SuperLag> oops
	[06:22] <SuperLag> that was for you fabbione
	[06:22] <fabbione> "to look nicer at boot"
	[06:22] <SuperLag> are you meaning to say aesthetics? :)
	[06:22] <fabbione> yeah sorry
	[06:22] <fabbione> en_IT ;)
	[06:22] <SuperLag> well, sure
	[06:22] <fabbione> but this is #ubuntu discussion
	[06:22] <SuperLag> I know that... but I'd still like to clean it up.
	[06:36] <chrisa> If you disable hotplug then just use /etc/modules
	[06:37] <jdub> daniels: what goodies does your x40 package include?
	[06:37] <mdz> daniels: hell yes we care about PAE
	[06:38] <mdz> daniels: but not particularly for X
	[06:38] <jdub> morning mdz
	[06:38] <mdz> morning
	[06:38] <lamont> mdz: fired mail at alex wrt apt-get.
	[06:38] <daniels> mdz: cool
	[06:38] <mdz> lamont: thanks
	[06:39] <lamont> if we can get that working, would be nice to include
	[06:39] <daniels> jdub: just a bunch of /etc/acpi scripts and a dependency on i855-crt
	[06:39] <mdz> lamont: localisation is the big one
	[06:39] <lamont> otherwise, I'm asserting that 20041022-04 is final
	[06:39] <mdz> that's necessary for proper demo goodness
	[06:39] <lamont> closing 2614
	[06:39] <mdz> lamont: it would also be nice if firmware loading could be made to work
	[06:39] <mdz> but that may or may not be doable
	[06:39] <mdz> I'd like amu's opinion on it
	[06:40] <mdz> alex did the work of integrating the drivers, but they're useless without firmware
	[06:40] <lamont> yeah. the package is there, but doesn't seem to be linked in well.
	[06:40] <mdz> the files are there
	[06:40] <mdz> they just aren't loaded correctly
	[06:40] <mdz> I filed a bug
	[06:40] <lamont> number?
	=== lamont searches
	[06:41] <lamont> 2633
	[06:41] <lamont> hw detection is initially done in the basemod
	=== lamont suspects that mdz is correct
	[06:42] <mdz> lamont: even after everything is up and running, if I unload it and load it again, it fails
	[06:42] <mdz> lamont: does it use chroot or pivot_root?
	[06:42] <mdz> I think pivot_root would work, and chroot not
	[06:43] <lamont> I think it uses chroot, claims to at least
	[06:44] <lamont> cool. bootpraam 'debugmorphix' gets you a shell early on
	[06:48] <lamont> jdub: am I expecting new artwork from you?
	[06:49] <lamont> mdz: btw, Henrik indicated WinFOSS is 'go'
	[06:49] <fabbione> hey mdz
	[06:50] <fabbione> mdz: do you which setting in thunderbird can make that CR/LF mess?
	[06:50] <fabbione> i really can't find any
	[06:50] <fabbione> and i have set to compose in text mode
	[06:50] <jdub> lamont: hrm, don't have it already?
	[06:50] <lamont> mdz: were any of the other livecd bugs filed in the RC category?
	[06:51] <lamont> jdub: I have what you gave me yesterday
	[06:51] <jdub> hrm
	[06:52] <jdub> sent another one a while back
	[06:52] <lamont> while ==?
	[06:53] <fabbione> mdz: how is going with amber?
	[06:53] <mdz> fabbione: she's being difficult
	[06:53] <aj> don't diss amber!
	[06:53] <mdz> elmo said his piece was done
	[06:54] <lamont> my piece done
	[06:54] <mdz> then everything should be done
	[06:54] <jdub> lamont: hour or two
	[06:54] <mdz> and yet there are still no binaries in queue/accepted
	[06:54] <mdz> I wonder if it needs a nudge
	[06:54] <lamont> jdub: resend?
	[06:54] <fabbione> mdz: i didn't see any message going out..is that correct?
	[06:55] <mdz> fabbione: what kind of message?
	[06:55] <lamont> mdz: w-b access is currently blocked, I believe
	[06:55] <fabbione> mdz: a security-announce
	[06:55] <mdz> fabbione: the packages are not installed yet
	[06:55] <mdz> they are not even built
	[06:55] <fabbione> ok
	[06:55] <mdz> they need to be built, then tested, then an advisory sent out
	[06:55] <mdz> did you write one already?
	[06:55] <fabbione> nope
	[06:56] <fabbione> i tought that it is some kind of templates that needs to be filled
	[06:56] <fabbione> but do we have the template somewhere?
	[06:56] <fabbione> aj: definetely not :)
	[07:02] <mdz> fabbione: the template should have been mailed to you
	[07:02] <mdz> or perhaps to me
	[07:02] <mdz> but I don't think I received it
	[07:02] <fabbione> mdz: i didn't see anything here
	[07:02] <jdub> lamont: hrm, go without, it was naff anyway
	[07:03] <jdub> lamont: can you expand the menu across the screen?
	[07:04] <lamont> jdub: no clue.
	[07:04] <fabbione> mdz: do you know from which address should have come?
	[07:04] <lamont> and not really all that awake either.
	[07:04] <mdz> fabbione: no
	[07:04] <mdz> katie@somewhere I presume
	[07:04] <jdub> mdz: suggestion to make /initrd immutable by default. thoughts? :)
	[07:04] <mdz> jdub: boggle
	[07:05] <jdub> One beer says you deleted /initrd, the empty directory which pivot_root
	[07:05] <jdub> uses.
	[07:05] <jdub> People always do this. Distro's should make it immutable by default.
	[07:05] <mdz> I have never heard of anyone doing that before
	[07:05] <mdz> people who remove random directories without understanding them deserve what they get :-P
	=== lamont did remove the kernel once, very early in his experience with unix...
	[07:06] <jdub> "what a mess, let's tidy this up..."
	[07:06] <jdub> ;)
	[07:06] <lamont> jdub: actually, _I_ was just very desparate for disk space, and the 3MB file was just the trick.
	[07:06] <lamont> until the next reboot,that is..
	[07:07] <fabbione> mdz: i got twice the message from katie about libpng_ being ACCEPTED
	[07:07] <lamont> mdz: any objections to me just putting livecd status in my activity report?
	[07:07] <fabbione> mdz: that was the last one
	=== lamont is fading
	[07:08] <mdz> lamont: none
	[07:08] <lamont> alex and amu looking at firmware blobs?
	[07:10] <mdz> lamont: I gave amu the bug; he'll look at it when he's awake
	[07:10] <lamont> ok
	[07:11] <lamont> jdub: go ahead and toss me the new image and if we do another build, I'll stick it in
	=== lamont falls into bed. Back in about 6 hours or so
	=== x4m [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[07:21] <mdz> lamont: this latest live CD image is suddenly much bigger
	[07:21] <mdz> this is not good
	[07:35] <mdz> or perhaps I'm just hallucinating
	[07:45] <daniels> mdz: are we still processing univer syncs?
	[07:46] <mdz> daniels: not unless they're FTBFS
	[07:46] <mdz> or baby jesus speaks through Mark and asks for something
	[07:46] <fabbione> daniels: libXau doesn't create shared libs, right?
	[07:47] <daniels> mdz: ok, so saying 'can we get latest scummvm in, and I'll deal with it if need be' is unlikely to gain much traction? ;)
	[07:48] <daniels> fabbione: in the monolithic tree, no. in the modular tree, yes.
	[07:48] <fabbione> ok
	[07:48] <fabbione> i guess that's just s imple modification to the Imake
	[07:48] <fabbione> simple even
	[07:49] <daniels> yeah
	[07:49] <fabbione> #define DoSharedLib SharedLibXau
	[07:49] <fabbione> it is defined
	[07:49] <mdz> daniels: correct
	[07:57] <fabbione> daniels: that was easy :-))
	[07:59] <fabbione> daniels: the templates seems to work pretty fine
	[07:59] <fabbione> daniels: now it's only question of finding the properr build order
	[08:00] <daniels> cool
	[08:00] <fabbione> my actual process is to pick a project
	[08:00] <fabbione> create the structure from the template
	[08:00] <fabbione> build
	[08:00] <fabbione> define dependency
	[08:01] <fabbione> import patches
	[08:01] <fabbione> rebuils
	[08:01] <fabbione> complete the usual stuff (like lintian, and other checks)
	[08:01] <fabbione> done
	[08:01] <fabbione> pretty fast
	[08:01] <fabbione> if one package is stalled by another it gives immediatly the next package name
	[08:33] <jdub> 258 in #u... yeesh
	[08:34] <bob2> the #u GMAIL stats are even weirder than the list ones ;)
	[08:34] <jdub> haha
	[08:34] <jdub> ubuntu-announce:1378
	[08:34] <jdub> ubuntu-devel:334
	[08:34] <jdub> ubuntu-users:1020
	[08:34] <bob2> #ubuntu : 95% annoying
	[08:38] <mdz> jdub: those are totals, or gmail?
	[08:39] <jdub> totals
	[08:41] <jdub> hrm, can we kill all the other kernel packages?
	[08:41] <mdz> not trivially
	[08:41] <mdz> universe is an incestuous mess; stuff build-depends on those things
	[08:41] <jdub> ouch
	[08:41] <mdz> we just need to train people to read the FAQ
	[08:42] <mdz> and train them that the name of the kernel is 'linux'
	=== hazmat [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[08:55] <jdub> daniels: if hoary opened tomorrow, how long would xorg be? :)
	[08:56] <daniels> jdub: into the tree? probably mid-to-late nov
	[08:56] <jdub> ta
	[08:57] <daniels> this is a completely hypothetical question, I take it
	[08:57] <jdub> no
	[08:57] <jdub> but if hoary didn't open tomorrow, i gather it would be around the same time
	[08:57] <jdub> how much earlier could it be?
	[08:58] <daniels> the earliest we could do it would be the second week, I'd imagine
	[08:58] <daniels> this is i386/powerpc/amd64
	[08:59] <jdub> so you wouldn't want to do it pre-X-summit?
	[08:59] <daniels> not until I've got together with Fabio and we've beaten all the bugs out of the migration path, not really
	[09:00] <jdub> ahr, yeah, that's the bigger issue
	[09:01] <daniels> i don't really want #ubuntu full of 'hi i ran smart upgrade and um my x isbroken' ;)
	[09:01] <jdub> heh
	[09:04] <bob2> "hi i run smart upgrade and enabled transparency and now my x is slow"
	[09:05] <daniels> oh my god. don't even joke about that.
	[09:08] <fabbione> jdub: we will get the packages into the archive when at least the upgrade path is known to work
	[09:08] <fabbione> jdub: in the meanwhile we will use some temporary location
	[09:08] <fabbione> so that expert users can test them
	[09:08] <fabbione> but get ready for a big fight with bugs and stuff
	[09:08] <fabbione> that is going to be frustrating
	[09:09] <fabbione> mainly because you install X.org removing Xfree86 completely
	[09:09] <fabbione> that also mean that 99.9999% of the cases upgrades withing X will be highly discouraged
	[09:09] <fabbione> and there is really NOTHING we can do about it
	[09:10] <bob2> "withing" = "while running"?
	=== srbaker [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[09:13] <srbaker> heya everyone
	[09:14] <srbaker> i ordered a rather significant number of cds in the shipit system. doesn't someone want me to justify 35 cds? (25 x86, 5 ppc, 5 amd64?) or are there enough to go around?
	[09:19] <jdub> srbaker: justification only required for large orders ;)
	[09:21] <srbaker> jdub, that's not a large order?
	[09:21] <srbaker> because i was trying to keep my numbers low. :P
	[09:22] <srbaker> heh. actually, that was exactly what i needed, i think.
	[09:22] <jdub> :-)
	[09:22] <srbaker> i'm handing them out to folks in my LUG, and whatever's left over, i'll be handing out at the Dal CS building.
	[09:22] <jdub> srbaker: put it this way... we got an order from FOSDEM.
	[09:22] <srbaker> Oh.
	[09:22] <srbaker> understood
	[09:23] <jdub> if a big order seems worthwhile, we'll fill it
	[09:23] <srbaker> where can i expect the dpkg work to be taking place? i'm very interested in working on that.
	[09:23] <jdub> srbaker: in Keybuk's brain
	=== pitti [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[09:23] <srbaker> oh. i'm interested in working on it. especially triggers.
	[09:23] <jdub> yeah, triggers sound neat-o
	[09:24] <srbaker> i had a problem with some elisp packages. python-mode, actually.
	[09:24] <jdub> Keybuk: pingitypong
	[09:24] <Keybuk> heh, good timing :)
	[09:24] <srbaker> installed emacs, then python-mode, and then xemacs. xemacs didn't byte compile python-mode, because it was done in python-mode's postinst
	[09:24] <srbaker> i think. i could be confusing packages here.
	[09:24] <srbaker> and i remember thinking at the time "hey, it'd be nice to be able to notify the system that this package was just installed"
	[09:25] <srbaker> Keybuk, ahh, well, please include me in your dpkg work. i'm very interested.
	[09:25] <srbaker> i was included in the ML when wiggy was talking with some folks for "dpkgv2" but it faded into nonexistence
	[09:26] <srbaker> Keybuk, also, i thought it might be worthwhile to investigate xdelta for source packages.
	[09:26] <Keybuk> xdelta is ok for binaries, never really got happy with it for patches
	[09:27] <srbaker> Keybuk, but a .src.deb would be a binary.
	[09:27] <Keybuk> ah, I see what you mean ... upload a changes and xdelta rather than the .src.deb ?
	[09:27] <srbaker> right.
	[09:27] <Keybuk> there's still the mirror-push problem though
	[09:27] <srbaker> push the xdelta
	[09:27] <jdub> rdiff :)
	[09:27] <srbaker> rdiff?
	=== bob2 likes being able to poke at .diff.gz's in the pool from his browser
	[09:28] <jdub> rsync diff
	[09:28] <Keybuk> then to get a source package you have to download a src.deb and a set of xdeltas ?
	[09:28] <srbaker> bob2, same. but a browser plugin can fix that :P
	[09:28] <srbaker> Keybuk, sure, why not?
	[09:28] <bob2> hahahaha
	[09:28] <srbaker> Keybuk, dpkg-source -x can apply all .xdelta files.
	[09:29] <srbaker> jdub, doesn't rsync's diff use xdelta?
	[09:29] <srbaker> Keybuk, i'm not entirely sure it'd be a working idea. i'm just throwing out ideas.
	[09:29] <srbaker> Keybuk, i definitely want to be included in the discussion, tho, as i said.
	[09:29] <jdub> nah
	[09:29] <srbaker> Keybuk, i'm capable and happy to write code. i'm hesitant to just go and write code without discussing it first on something liek dpkg, though.
	[09:30] <Keybuk> the first hurdle isn't writing code, it's understanding the existing code and getting to a point where it can be refactored
	[09:30] <jdub> you need the netbeans refactoring system!
	[09:30] <jdub> and javur!
	[09:30] <srbaker> Keybuk, i was very familiar with the dpkg code at one point in my life. it won't take long to get it back.
	[09:31] <Keybuk> iwj-c melts people's brains :)
	[09:31] <bob2> Keybuk: is your python re-write public yet?
	=== bob2 runs
	[09:31] <srbaker> Keybuk, i didn't find iwj's code to be that bad. i actually found benc's hacking of it to be a little worse.
	[09:31] <jdub> you could pyrex/python it
	[09:31] <srbaker> oh, who's in charge of hooking up planet debian syndicators?
	[09:32] <Keybuk> yeah, dpkg really suffers from being a good piece of software that's been hacked on, rather than improved
	[09:32] <bob2> srbaker: you edit the cvs module yourself
	[09:32] <srbaker> oh.
	[09:32] <srbaker> bob2, is there a doc?
	[09:33] <Keybuk> srbaker: /org/planet.debian.org/README on gluck
	[09:33] <srbaker> thanks
	[09:33] <srbaker> i've been way too debian-idle for too long.
	[09:33] <srbaker> i'm about to do a debut release, too (Debian Upload Tool)
	[09:33] <srbaker> since shorty's being a cock
	[09:34] <srbaker> and the dput code didn't like my hacking too well
	[09:35] <Keybuk> srbaker: how's your arch voodoo?
	[09:35] <srbaker> Keybuk, i read the docs and have a basic understanding.
	[09:36] <srbaker> Keybuk, i use monotone
	[09:36] <srbaker> but i'm happy to work with arch, it does everything i need
	[09:38] <srbaker> Keybuk, why do you ask? what have you got?
	[09:39] <Keybuk> I've been maintaining dpkg in arch for quite a while now, the cvs.d.o repository just gets sync'd whenever I do a dump or release at the moment
	[09:39] <srbaker> oh
	[09:39] <srbaker> cool
	[09:40] <Keybuk> [email protected]/dpkg--devo--1.10 is the current released code; the archive's at http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/arch/personal/
	[09:40] <srbaker> Keybuk, cool. i'll grab it
	[09:46] <srbaker> installing ubuntu on my lappy now that i figured out what was wrong with it before
	[09:46] <srbaker> acpi=force, by the way
	[09:47] <srbaker> for those of you unfortunate enough to have toshiba lappies
	[09:48] <thom> tseng: oh, ber
	[09:49] <Keybuk> morning thombot
	[09:50] <thom> marnin'
	[09:52] <fabbione> hey thom
	[09:52] <Keybuk> thom: apache2 trips a pyarch bug ... be proud :p
	[09:53] <thom> Keybuk: ROCK!
	[09:53] <srbaker> pyarch?
	[09:53] <srbaker> wtf is that?
	[09:53] <Keybuk> srbaker: python API to arch
	[09:53] <srbaker> nice
	[09:54] <srbaker> the thing that pissed me off about arch was the weird directories it dumped everywhere, and it's insistence on weird directory naming
	[09:54] <srbaker> it's a little imposing
	[09:54] <Keybuk> heh, yeah, that pisses us off too :p
	[09:54] <srbaker> oh, good.
	[09:55] <srbaker> monotone just integrates with what i have :)
	[09:55] <srbaker> non imposing
	[09:55] <srbaker> :)
	[09:55] <Keybuk> but nothing comes close to arch wrt merging and sharing branches
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	[09:56] <srbaker> Keybuk, ahh. monotone uses xdelta, too
	[09:57] <srbaker> that's actually where i learned about it
	[09:58] <Keybuk> arch is oddly oxymoronic ... it has an awesome fundamental simplicity with an incredibly complicated and obtuse UI on top
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	[09:58] <srbaker> does someone want to make a "broken toshiba lappy use acpi=force" note? is there a forum or something that i should dump that in?
	[09:58] <srbaker> Keybuk, heh. same with monotone
	[09:59] <srbaker> i'm currently writing a web interface to monotone. it sucks currently, but it's coming along.
	[09:59] <srbaker> that's my other project, in addition to debut.
	[09:59] <srbaker> i keep hitting dput bugs, and short's a prick, so i'm doing the right thing
	[10:07] <bob2> Keybuk: you're full of arch gripes!
	[10:08] <Keybuk> bob2: heh, it was a bad day I wrote that <g>
	[10:08] <Keybuk> I'd hit all of them in about an hour
	[10:08] <bob2> Keybuk: that said, I want a copy of your book
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	[10:09] <srbaker> what book?
	[10:09] <srbaker> and what writing?
	[10:09] <srbaker> i feel out of the loop
	[10:09] <bob2> I'm just troll Keybuk because I'm bored.\
	[10:09] <Keybuk> heh, "Arch Is Easy, and other Lies The Developers May Have Told You"
	[10:10] <Keybuk> bob2: this explains your lack of progress with hct :p
	[10:14] <bob2> ah, erm, eh :-)
	=== bob2 returns to work
	=== Keybuk wins \o/
	[10:16] <Keybuk> You attack the troll--more--
	[10:16] <Keybuk> The troll dies
	=== mvo_ [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[10:17] <pitti> Hi mvo_
	[10:17] <mvo_> hi pitti
	[10:17] <srbaker> hct?
	[10:18] <daniels> Keybuk: of course there's no progress, it's hypothetical
	[10:20] <srbaker> oh, where do i get the dvdcss library for ubuntu?
	[10:21] <daniels> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/BinaryDriverHowto
	[10:21] <daniels> or maybe RestrictedFormats
	[10:21] <daniels> but it's on there, quite plainly
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	[10:24] <Keybuk> bah, I wish arch could do multiple inheritence
	[10:24] <bob2> of?
	[10:25] <Keybuk> tags which are continuations of two different branches <g>
	[10:25] <pitti> Does anybody know when the Hoary feature goals meeting will be?
	[10:25] <bob2> Keybuk: hah
	[10:25] <thom> monday afternoon was the last i heard
	[10:25] <Keybuk> to shut star-merge up and it's "trees are not related"
	[10:25] <bob2> Keybuk: you can merge the trees to one, but the branch can only inhereit from one of them
	[10:25] <bob2> ah, right
	[10:25] <pitti> thom: ah, I heard sth about today (from previous meeting). Thanks
	[10:26] <Keybuk> base-0, continuation of X; patch-1, sync-tree of Y
	[10:26] <Keybuk> is just sucky
	[10:26] <daniels> thom: monday afternoon utc?
	[10:27] <Kamion> huh, I'd thought the Hoary meeting was today too
	[10:27] <Kamion> obviously a shared hallucination or something
	[10:27] <pitti> Kamion: no, that was proposed on Tuesday's meeting
	[10:27] <pitti> but I did not ready any announcement on the lists
	[10:28] <pitti> BTW, #u-meeting still claims that "today" is a TB meeting
	[10:28] <pitti> I'm going to clear this
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	[10:32] <Kamion> mdz: can I move this proactivesecurity stuff into the TB agenda, or at the very least off the CC agenda?
	[10:32] <srbaker> well, i think 5:30a is about a good time for bed
	=== seb128 [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[10:46] <pitti> Morning seb128
	[10:47] <seb128> hello pitti
	[10:47] <elmo_> Kamion: am I okay to clear out old instances of d-i and/or the daily images?
	[10:48] <thom> Kamion: hm, i thought that we were "off" until monday
	[10:51] <srbaker> Hey!
	[10:51] <srbaker> There's no Ubuntu porn on my login screen.
	[10:51] <srbaker> the screen shot on the website promised me ubuntu porn
	[10:55] <pitti> thom: although we are "off", could you take a look at https://chinstrap.warthogs.hbd.com/~pitti/
	[10:55] <pitti> thom: it contains security updates for xpdf and cupsys
	[10:55] <pitti> thom: the patches are taken from the Debian packages, but mdz wants a review nevertheless
	[10:55] <pitti> anybody else would be fine as well, of course :-)
	[10:56] <pitti> interdiffs are available, too
	[10:57] <srbaker> okay, huge problem
	[10:57] <srbaker> i just installed warty. logged in via gdm
	[10:57] <srbaker> and it sits there.
	[10:58] <srbaker> i don't get the startup splash screen
	[10:59] <Kamion> elmo_: daily images yes
	[11:00] <srbaker> is this a known problem i'm having?
	[11:00] <Kamion> elmo_: and yes, might as well clear out 20040801ubuntu{13,18,19}
	[11:00] <Kamion> thom: I could easily be on crack :)
	[11:01] <shlomil> srbaker: try to choose session
	[11:02] <srbaker> shlomil, i chose "gnome" and same thing
	[11:02] <srbaker> i'll try failsafe gnome
	[11:03] <shlomil> check your disk quota
	[11:03] <bob2> pitti: I'm almost certain suspend isn't meant to work on ibook g4s
	[11:03] <thom> Kamion:
	[11:03] <thom> 17:47 < Kamion> mdz: Thursday for sleep, Friday for meetings? :)
	[11:03] <thom> 17:47 < Keybuk> elmo: rookery doesn't have much on it though (like tla :p)
	[11:03] <thom> 17:47 < mdz> Kamion: thursday-sunday sleep, monday meeting?
	[11:03] <pitti> bob2: I had tried this in Sid, there it worked, somehow
	[11:04] <pitti> bob2: but I'm not so sure about it
	[11:04] <bob2> pitti: hm, not just turning the backlight off?
	[11:04] <pitti> bob2: I'm not sure
	[11:04] <bob2> pitti: closing the lid on mine just turns that off and eventually hard-shuts-down if I don't open it again
	[11:04] <pitti> bob2: it took a while until it woke up again
	[11:04] <pitti> bob2: unlike Ubuntu, which immediately wakes up again
	[11:05] <bob2> pitti: hm
	[11:05] <pitti> bob2: but there was another problem, if I left it to sleep long enough, it completely went down
	[11:05] <pitti> anyway, breakfast
	[11:05] <pitti> brb
	[11:05] <srbaker> shlomil, with failsafe, i get the splash screen, but no icons or anything
	[11:05] <srbaker> it seems to hang there
	[11:05] <srbaker> shlomil, and i don't have quotas configured
	[11:06] <shlomil> no icons on desktop ?
	[11:06] <shlomil> ... thats normal in Ubuntu .. ;)
	[11:06] <bob2> pitti: yeah, same here
	[11:07] <bob2> pitti: and not a polite shutdown, more like a powercut
	[11:08] <bob2> pitti: btw, do you have gtkpbbuttons working in warty?
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	[11:09] <srbaker> shlomil, uh, what?
	[11:10] <srbaker> shlomil, gnome-session is hanging
	[11:12] <shlomil> i don't know man
	[11:14] <shlomil> srbaker: when i asked about quotas, i ment also free space
	[11:14] <shlomil> srbaker: sometimes this happens when there's no space left on the device
	[11:15] <srbaker> no.
	[11:15] <srbaker> there's lots of space
	[11:15] <srbaker> so, not only do i not get my porn, it's broken
	[11:15] <srbaker> how nice.
	[11:17] <shlomil> srbaker: try to login in text mode , shutdown gdm and run startx
	[11:17] <srbaker> k
	[11:17] <pitti> bob2: I tried gtkpbbuttons, it worked
	[11:17] <srbaker> should i empty my homedir of gnome files first?
	[11:17] <pitti> bob2: but I don't really use them
	[11:18] <pitti> srbaker: you can try
	[11:18] <srbaker> i already did tha ,and added "gnome-session" to ~/.xsession
	[11:18] <srbaker> same thing
	[11:18] <pitti> srbaker: but before you can just try to login as another user
	[11:18] <shlomil> srbaker: you can create a new user maybe
	[11:18] <srbaker> under "failsafe" gnome, i got the splash screen, but it hung there
	[11:21] <srbaker> gah.
	[11:21] <srbaker> running startx as a new user starts up
	[11:21] <srbaker> but it's S L O W
	[11:21] <srbaker> my lappy may still be fucked up
	[11:21] <srbaker> anyways, bed time
	[11:21] <srbaker> it's 6am
	[11:21] <shlomil> heh
	[11:22] <shlomil> might be not enough memory .... (?)
	[11:22] <shlomil> gnight
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	[12:11] <amu> moinD
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	[12:20] <Kamion> lamont: do you want a new version of the live CD dropped onto releases.ubuntu.com?
	[12:21] <Kamion> hm, not entirely convinced by InstallFromKnoppixHowto ...
	=== Kamion downloads Knoppix in order to test out better methods
	[12:27] <pitti> elmo_: Hi! Any news regarding warty-security?
	[12:28] <Kamion> 03:00 < joeyh> less than 8 hours from UPS to a fully automated debian install, and that included the time to write the interface to the remote management interface
	[12:28] <Kamion> THAT'S where I want to be with ia64
	[12:28] <elmo_> pitti: you can make uploads if you like - they'll be in limbo till mdz gets up and we can finish testing the actual release mechanism
	[12:29] <thom> elmo_: any sign of the itanic^Hums?
	[12:29] <elmo_> (they'll get accepted and built tho, so it's probably worthwhile)
	[12:29] <elmo_> thom: dude, why do you bother logging on to jabber, if you don't read msgs there? :P
	[12:29] <elmo_> (i.e. see jabber)
	[12:30] <thom> heh
	[12:30] <thom> i guess i need to make gaim make alarming noises
	[12:30] <elmo_> have it pop up in your face - then you too can type your passphrase/word at random jabber-buddies
	[12:30] <pitti> elmo_: okay, then I'll upload the stuff to get it built and send mdz the interdiffs for approval
	[12:30] <elmo_> free for a limited time offer
	[12:30] <pitti> elmo_: thanks
	[12:31] <elmo_> pitti: hmm, don't upload unapproved stuff
	[12:31] <daniels> elmo_: 'your account disabled -- only $1.95 with any large value meal'
	[12:31] <elmo_> pitti: like a normal upload, once it's uploaded, it's final
	[12:31] <pitti> elmo_: okay; I asked mdz yesterday to approve, but maybe he has some more time today
	[12:32] <thom> free rm -f with every upload!
	[12:32] <amu> Kamion: morphix installer is nice. But needs some work. Knoppix installer inst such flexible, _and_ unmaintained
	[12:32] <pitti> elmo_: then I'll send him a link to the packages and he can upload himself
	[12:33] <Kamion> amu: don't really care, I'm only using it to install Ubuntu from
	[12:33] <mjg59> ARGH.
	[12:33] <mjg59> An NTL man is outside.
	[12:33] <Kamion> amu: p.s. read the doc, it's not actually the Knoppix-install-to-hard-disk thing
	[12:33] <amu> Kamion: the live ?
	[12:33] <mjg59> He's on the phone to NTL.
	[12:33] <mjg59> He's on hold.
	[12:33] <mjg59> On a hands-free kit.
	[12:33] <Kamion> amu: read http://wiki.ubuntu.com/InstallFromKnoppixHowto :-)
	[12:34] <mjg59> I'm being forced to listen to NTL hold music without the joy of knowing that I'll get to scream at NTL afterwards.
	[12:34] <thom> mjg59: giggle
	[12:34] <Kamion> I suppose I should log into jabber like once a lifetime or so
	[12:35] <amu> Kamion: Ah got it.
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	[12:42] <pitti> Hi silbs!
	=== rburton [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[12:44] <rburton> congrats on warty by the way
	[12:45] <rburton> didn't get to say it yesterday
	[12:45] <seb128> hey rburton, thanks :)
	[12:45] <thom> hey ross
	[12:45] <rburton> hey hey
	[12:49] <daniels> rburton: hey dude
	[12:50] <rburton> hi daniels
	[12:50] <daniels> wie gehts?
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	[01:18] <amu> Kamion: hehe, nice idea, maybe debtakeover is also a option ;)
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	[01:22] <Mitario> lo everyone!
	=== sivang [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[01:30] <daniels> heh, one of the negotiators on the negotiator looks like taggart
	[01:34] <pitti> sjoerd: hum, you install the gthumb wrapper into /usr/bin; we do it to /usr/share/g-v-m/
	[01:35] <pitti> sjoerd: any way I could convince you to do the same? :-)
	[01:35] <pitti> sjoerd: in the long run we should get rid of this hack anyway, but...
	[01:38] <sjoerd> pitti: if you have a good rationale why to do it in /usr/share :)
	[01:39] <pitti> sjoerd: it's a temporary hack and should not clutter up /usr/bin
	[01:39] <pitti> sjoerd: when people start to write scripts which rely on this hack, it's difficult to get rid of it
	[01:40] <sjoerd> pitti: with the last reason you've got a point
	=== sjoerd wonders if there is some kind of policy about helper scripts
	[01:41] <pitti> sjoerd: I plan to rewrite this part anyway
	[01:41] <pitti> sjoerd: but right now I'm synchronizing to your version, I want to clean up first
	[01:41] <sjoerd> pitti: rewrite as in let g-v-m have seperated cases ?
	[01:41] <sjoerd> sounds sane
	[01:41] <pitti> sjoerd: the funny thing is that g-v-m already has separate cases
	[01:42] <pitti> sjoerd: these are merged at some point to call the wrapper script
	[01:42] <pitti> sjoerd: which has to sort them apart again
	[01:42] <pitti> sjoerd: could you help me with the UI part?
	[01:42] <sjoerd> yeah it's just one property
	[01:42] <pitti> sjoerd: we should have two properties
	[01:42] <pitti> sjoerd: and probably they should both be configurable in the prefs dialog
	[01:43] <pitti> sjoerd: you already hacked at this, can you do this again?
	[01:43] <sjoerd> pitti: sure
	[01:44] <sjoerd> no right now though :), probably somewhere during the weekend
	=== SuperLag [[email protected]] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"]
	[02:15] <rburton> gar
	[02:15] <rburton> does anyone have a decent svg of the ubuntu logo without a weird bounding box?
	[02:17] <rburton> right, i've done one
	[02:17] <rburton> can i edit attachments in the wiki?
	[02:21] <Kamion> ai
	[02:21] <Kamion> can people please be sure not to misspell "Ubuntu" when writing documentation?
	[02:22] <lamont> Kamion: my normal issue is spelling it ubunut
	[02:24] <lamont> mdz: -rw-r--r-- 1 lamont buildd 673589248 Oct 20 07:50 20041020-07/warty-live-i386-20041020-07.iso
	[02:24] <lamont> -rw-r--r-- 1 lamont buildd 674152448 Oct 22 04:24 20041022-04/warty-live-i386-20041022-04.iso
	[02:24] <lamont> 600KB bigger is not "a lot bigger"
	[02:25] <mjg59> Why the christ are people suggesting GRs about changing release policy?
	[02:27] <lamont> mjg59: because we can force those techincal bastards to release _NOW_ that way, whether it's ready or not, dammit.
	[02:27] <lamont> :-(
	[02:28] <mjg59> lamont: Actually, I think they want to propose freezing unstable
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	[02:28] <mjg59> I'm increasingly of the opinion that there's about 10-15 people that should be culled from Debian
	[02:28] <mjg59> Some day I'll get around to actually writing this list down
	[02:29] <lamont> mjg59: that violates the 6-shooter principle, though
	[02:29] <mjg59> lamont: We line them all up first
	[02:29] <lamont> but it's been violated before by other organizations
	[02:29] <rburton> mjg59, our office admin guy would probably make a good hired goon
	[02:30] <lamont> amu: about?
	[02:30] <Keybuk> how odd ... I've not received any mails from debian-vote since August 20th
	[02:31] <Keybuk> in fact, it's more likely since July 27th
	[02:31] <Kamion> mjg59: I have a ~/debian/morons file
	[02:31] <mjg59> Kamion: Hurrah!
	[02:31] <Kamion> although it's too short currently
	[02:32] <daniels> heh!
	[02:32] <elmo_> kamion: clearly that should be gluck:public_html/morons.txt file ;-)
	[02:32] <mjg59> We should all pool our morons databases and then figure out the best way to neutralise these people
	[02:32] <Kamion> elmo_: arguably :)
	[02:32] <lamont> Kamion: I think I want to wait and hear from amu and get an ACK from mdz, but 20041022-04 looks to be rc2
	[02:33] <Kamion> mjg59: Mr. "I Think It's Sensible To Set Release Policy By GR" is inexplicably not among them; let me rectify this
	[02:33] <\|trey\|> Kamion: I better not be in there ;P
	[02:33] <Kamion> \|trey\|: I don't even know your name
	[02:33] <daniels> \|trey\|: you're not a debian developer, either.
	[02:33] <\|trey\|> Kamion: k good ;)
	[02:33] <\|trey\|> daniels: ^
	[02:34] <lamont> Kamion: I bet his name is 'trey'. :-)
	[02:34] <\|trey\|> I want to learn, but haven't the time for programming... brains fed too much infomation tend to explode :(
	[02:35] <lamont> mjg59: "shiny bright"
	[02:35] <lamont> well, that only gets some of them
	[02:35] <Mitario> seb128, here?
	[02:42] <hornbeck> is the only mono packs in universe now, are they out of tsengs repository?
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	[02:55] <pitti> Hi carlos, howdy
	[02:57] <carlos> pitti: hi!
	[02:58] <amu> lamont: ?
	[03:00] <amu> lamont: 22-04 still dl'ing
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	[03:07] <Mitario> rburton, hiya
	[03:08] <rburton> hey Mitario
	[03:08] <Mitario> have some time? :)
	[03:08] <rburton> give me two
	[03:08] <rburton> (minutes)
	[03:08] <Mitario> heh, ok :)
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	[03:13] <T-Bone> hi
	[03:13] <Mitario> hi tbone
	[03:15] <rburton> Mitario, right, i've got coffee and music. let's talk
	[03:15] <Mitario> heh, ok
	[03:16] <Mitario> about the update stuff, dunno if you've read my proposal?
	[03:16] <rburton> yeah, i saw it
	[03:16] <rburton> its ruby at the moment, right?
	[03:16] <Mitario> yes, but we want to change that
	[03:17] <Mitario> to either c++, with libapt, or python if python-apt evolves
	[03:17] <rburton> http://www.burtonini.com/computing/screenshots/app-install.png is a work-in-progress of my app-install program
	[03:17] <Mitario> and we wanted some of your opinions on what language and such
	[03:17] <Mitario> ok, wow, that looks cool
	[03:17] <rburton> i'm using python and am currently hacking code to call synaptic --set-selections
	[03:17] <rburton> but the goal is to extend python-apt
	[03:18] <rburton> (i'll put this is cvs somewhere at some point)
	[03:18] <Mitario> hm, then it would come in handy if the update list app is also written in python
	[03:18] <rburton> i thought extending python-apt would be best as if i used c++ i'd have to write exactly the same code
	[03:18] <rburton> so i may as well go the mile and write it as python bindings
	[03:19] <rburton> all i need is someone who knows python bindings and libapt-pkg to do the work for me ;)
	[03:20] <Mitario> heh :)
	=== Mitario doesn't know python at all
	[03:20] <Mitario> so i'll have to learn that first, but shouldn't be hard
	[03:20] <rburton> if you know ruby, not at all
	[03:21] <Mitario> oh, and nother little thingy: what is your idea on calling everything 'updates' or 'upgrades'?
	[03:21] <rburton> hm
	[03:21] <rburton> i see your app as updates
	[03:21] <rburton> the main use will be security updates
	[03:22] <rburton> when a new release comes out, its probably best to use synaptic anyway
	[03:22] <Mitario> guess to yes
	[03:22] <Mitario> hmm, i don't know about that, because we don't have any distinction between security updates and for example new upstream releases
	[03:22] <Mitario> although I could parse the version string of the package
	[03:22] <rburton> true. when a new release comes out it your app will offer them all
	[03:23] <Mitario> yep
	[03:23] <rburton> but the dist-upgrade logic is different to the upgrade logic
	[03:23] <Mitario> how michael and I currently thought if it that the update list app just calls synaptic --set-selections
	[03:23] <Mitario> and handles all dependencies and such
	[03:24] <rburton> should do the job
	[03:24] <mvo_> we could use the origin or the package to find out if it's a security update
	[03:24] <Mitario> good idea
	[03:24] <rburton> synaptic in svn has an option now to hide the main window, i poked michael about that earlier
	[03:24] <mvo_> or the label
	[03:25] <mvo_> Keybuk is no longer around?
	[03:26] <Mitario> so, current procedure is update notification -> list updates -> call synaptic with --set-selections
	[03:26] <Mitario> where list updates could make a distinction between security updates or just regular updates
	[03:27] <mvo_> and depending on the preferences of the user: "--non-interactive --hide-main-window"
	[03:27] <rburton> show top of the list, a cute emblem, etc
	[03:27] <pitti> bob2: okay, I updated g-v-m and built the whole lot for powerpc
	[03:27] <Mitario> rburton, just like your add/remove app would be nice
	[03:27] <pitti> bob2: have fun ;-)
	[03:27] <pitti> Hi mvo_
	[03:27] <Mitario> mvo_, yes
	[03:28] <mvo_> hi pitti !
	[03:28] <Mitario> although the --upgrade-mode of synaptic could also be somewhat nicer
	[03:28] <pitti> mvo_: still with your old nick?
	[03:28] <rburton> hm, the python docs lie
	[03:29] <rburton> ah, no they don't
	[03:29] <mvo_> pitti: yes. no idea for a better one yet. maybe I sould start a poll ;) vomi is possible but it sounds a bit like vomit I think ...
	[03:29] <Mitario> mvo_, can't we build in some kind of mode that all the windows will be replaced by something like http://geeklog.eyesopened.nl/ubdates/updatedialog.png?
	[03:29] <Mitario> so, the user doesn't know about refreshing the package list, setting the selection, downloading the stuff and etc.
	[03:29] <Mitario> but just knows 'oh, my computer is updating the packages'
	[03:29] <rburton> i would like an abridged progress dialog
	[03:30] <pitti> mvo_: my proposal was voimi :-)
	[03:30] <rburton> but as mvo_ said to me earlier, once apt starts you can't get progress
	[03:30] <Mitario> hmm, bummer
	[03:30] <mvo_> dpkg is the problem actually :)
	[03:30] <mvo_> dpkg --status-fd may help, keybuk pointed me to it
	[03:30] <rburton> rock
	[03:30] <mvo_> but we still need to solve conf-file handling
	[03:31] <rburton> urgh, yeah
	[03:31] <mvo_> and apparently it does not give progress information about the unpacking :/
	[03:31] <Mitario> what about the debgconf gtk frontend thingy?
	[03:31] <rburton> enforce "N" and tell the user?
	[03:31] <mvo_> so it's not quite there yet, but it's a start :)
	[03:31] <Mitario> rburton, or only show up a dialog if debconf asks for it
	[03:31] <rburton> yeah
	[03:32] <Mitario> hmm, will there be much debconf question if the package has a small package/security update?
	[03:32] <Kamion> unlikely just for security updates
	[03:32] <Kamion> although it's possible
	[03:32] <Mitario> hmm, yea
	[03:32] <bob2> pitti: yay, thanks a lot :-)
	[03:33] <rburton> it is quite likely there could be conffiles changes
	[03:34] <elmo_> Kamion: can you imagine a powerpc machine with i8042?
	[03:34] <Mitario> ok, and what about configuration?
	[03:34] <Kamion> elmo_: yes
	[03:34] <elmo_> kamion: which ones?
	[03:34] <Kamion> elmo_: CHRPish boxes have them
	[03:34] <elmo_> do CHRP do power4?
	[03:34] <Kamion> elmo_: basically anything IBM
	[03:34] <Mitario> i think we just need some kind of dialog to pop up when gconf asks a question
	[03:34] <Kamion> elmo_: yes
	[03:34] <elmo_> meh, ok
	[03:34] <Mitario> whether that's a gtk frontend, or a terminal widget, doesn't matter much IMO
	[03:35] <Kamion> newish RS/6000 boxen
	[03:35] <mvo_> yes, I think we need to solve the conffile problem if we want to hide the dpkg output
	[03:35] <Mitario> euhm, s/gconf/debconf
	[03:35] <elmo_> hmm, but hangon, CHRP needs something other htan PPC_MULTIPLATFORM, right?
	[03:35] <Kamion> mvo_: or do an expect-like trick
	[03:35] <Kamion> elmo_: don't think so?
	[03:36] <Kamion> <cjwatson@riva ~/src/ubuntu/linux-source-2.6.8.1/linux-source-2.6.8.1-2.6.8.1/ar
	[03:36] <Kamion> ch/ppc/configs>$ grep PPC_MULTIPLATFORM ibmchrp_defconfig
	[03:36] <Kamion> CONFIG_PPC_MULTIPLATFORM=y
	[03:36] <mvo_> Kamion: probably. if status-fd tells about the problem, we could do something like this
	[03:36] <elmo_> gar, sux2be an Xserve then
	[03:36] <Kamion> elmo_: and we have CONFIG_PPC_CHRP=y in our kernels
	[03:36] <mvo_> I'll just pester keybuk with it :)
	[03:36] <Mitario> mvo_, is there
	[03:36] <Mitario> woops
	[03:36] <elmo_> kamion: I was just thinking if there was some way we could exclude i8042 as Y based on config variables is all
	[03:37] <elmo_> kamion: (#2605 for ref)
	[03:37] <Mitario> yea, debconf needs to notify the package manager that it needs user interaction
	[03:37] <Kamion> elmo_: it happens that we don't support CHRP right now, but we've had about as many queries about RS/6000 support as we've had about Xserve G5 support by my reckoning
	[03:37] <Kamion> so it'd be nice, and CHRP is relatively non-evil since it basically uses yaboot
	[03:38] <Kamion> elmo_: yeah, saw that. not sure why i8042 can't be modular though
	[03:38] <elmo_> Kamion: sorry, don't get me wrong, wasn't suggesting we drop/not support chrp or anything
	[03:38] <Kamion> elmo_: d-i already has support for modprobing i8042 ...
	[03:38] <elmo_> kamion: can and is, that's why it's minor.. it's to try and help freaks who compile their own kernel
	[03:38] <Kamion> elmo_: yeah, I know, it's an awkward problem
	[03:38] <Kamion> elmo_: ah
	[03:39] <Kamion> elmo_: well, how about making I8042 depend on PPC_CHRP, or something?
	[03:39] <Kamion> (whatever needs it, maybe PPC_CHRP \| PPC_PREP)
	[03:39] <mvo_> rburton: will the app-installer only work with applications in main? or will it support universe as well?
	[03:39] <rburton> mvo_, just main
	[03:39] <Kamion> elmo_: then presumably you'll not compile CHRP support into your custom kernel and you'll get a warning if you try to turn on i8042
	[03:39] <rburton> mvo_, latest versions have an "Advanced" button which spawns synaptic
	[03:39] <mvo_> so you use a config file that white-lists what apps are we allow to install?
	[03:40] <rburton> far more cunning than that
	[03:40] <mvo_> tell me :)
	[03:40] <rburton> mvo_, jdub originally had the idea to embed the data in .desktop files
	[03:40] <mvo_> please
	[03:40] <mvo_> yes, that was my original idea as well
	[03:40] <elmo_> kamion: yeah... but i guess there might be other ppc embedded stuff with i8042's.. I should probably just give it up.. after all, it's not rocket science to figure out the culprit when it panics :)
	[03:41] <rburton> mvo_, i'm hacking it with local .desktop files at the moment, but this afternoon i'm going to try and write a script to scan a deb archive and extract the .desktop files and the icons
	[03:42] <Mitario> wow
	[03:42] <Mitario> sweet :)
	[03:42] <Kamion> elmo_: well, suggested it to Herbert anyway, will see what he thinks
	[03:42] <rburton> thus you get names, descriptions and icons
	[03:42] <Mitario> rburton, doing all this with python-apt?
	[03:42] <mvo_> rburton: I can send you a prototype for such a script. i hacked it to find out about how many dekstop files are in the archive. it's a bit messy though :)
	[03:42] <rburton> mvo_, that would be great
	[03:42] <rburton> Mitario, hopefully
	[03:44] <rburton> hm, can i spawn a new process in python which is detached from the parent?
	[03:47] <tseng> thom: noticed a few other things as well
	[03:48] <Mitario> so, any place where we can host all stuff? (svn/cvs repo's)
	[03:49] <rburton> Mitario, i was going to abuse my gnome cvs commit access
	[03:49] <Mitario> heh, euhm, well, can do that too :/
	[03:49] <Mitario> don't we have to ask permission for it?
	[03:51] <rburton> not now the server has huuuge amounts of disk space i believe
	[03:51] <Mitario> really? so I won't get ass-kicked if I import a module?
	[03:52] <Mitario> rburton, btw, that screenshot you just showed, is it a mockup? or actually code?
	[03:52] <rburton> Mitario, code
	[03:52] <Mitario> hmm, I would love to know how you have made that lovely treeview in python :)
	[03:53] <rburton> GtkTreeView is a black art
	[03:53] <rburton> every time i use it i learn something new
	[03:53] <rburton> i was going to write a big blog entry about it
	[03:53] <Mitario> heh :)
	[03:53] <rburton> Mitario, summary: renderer.set_cell_data_func() can do a lot.
	=== Mitario wonders if making ruby-apt bindings is hard
	[03:56] <mvo_> rburton: mail with the desktop file scaner is on the way
	[03:57] <rburton> cool
	[03:59] <rburton> mvo_, i think there is an easier way
	[04:00] <mvo_> tell me
	[04:00] <rburton> i may be wrong, give me a minute :)
	=== Mitario reads diveintopython
	[04:02] <lamont> amu: cool.
	[04:03] <lamont> amu: wondering about the firmware loading stuff that you were looking at.
	=== rburton on phone
	[04:04] <fabbione> re
	[04:06] <fabbione> mdz: ping
	[04:08] <daniels> wow, workrave is awesome
	=== daniels disables gnome-typing-monitor.
	[04:09] <fabbione> daniels: damn.. i can't link xlibi18n properly
	[04:10] <daniels> the monolithic tree's libx11 is horiffic
	[04:10] <daniels> horrific, even
	[04:10] <fabbione> daniels: well.. there a simple solution
	[04:11] <fabbione> it's a subsplit :-)
	[04:11] <fabbione> X11 builds and links fine
	[04:11] <fabbione> i can't manage to tell the xlibi18n where to find the .so for linking
	[04:12] <daniels> erk
	[04:12] <daniels> you hvae to build i18n with libx11
	[04:12] <daniels> there's not much way around that, i'm afraid
	[04:14] <amu> lamont: firmware, hmm 3 points, depends our policy, the driver itself, there are problems with acpi/suspend and of course a licenses
	=== jdthood [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[04:14] <lamont> amu: the firmware we think we can ship is on the CD, not getting installed correctly.
	[04:15] <lamont> at the very least, a note for the errata saying how to install the firmware post-boot...
	[04:15] <lamont> mdz said that even if he installed the firmware post boot, removing/reinserting didn't dothe right thing either.
	[04:15] <amu> lamont: the driver itself it's fine ? most of drivers arnt designed for 2.6 and acpi
	[04:16] <lamont> amu: dunno
	[04:16] <lamont> apparently works on installed kernel, not on liveCD, or I'd expect mdz to have said it differently
	[04:17] <amu> lamont: a clean driver with kernel 2.6 support should be no problem, me points to the wifi, those sucks without end
	[04:18] <lamont> right.
	[04:19] <amu> lamont: i do not know, we should add those firmware step by step, each release on more, and wait for a bugreport
	[04:19] <fabbione> daniels: no no.. i18n is built after X11
	[04:19] <lamont> amu: the firmware is on the CD.
	[04:19] <lamont> for warty
	[04:19] <fabbione> daniels: but i think i found the option to use
	[04:19] <daniels> fabbione: i think the trees are codependent though
	[04:19] <lamont> it's just not downloaded to the card correctly.
	=== lamont bbiab
	[04:20] <amu> pciid's / usbid's are known ?
	[04:20] <fabbione> daniels: the i18n has it's own set of configfiles. It ignores most of the top level Imakefiles entries
	[04:20] <mvo_> rburton, Mitario: I just looked over python-apt and it looks like the complette pkgDepCache interface is missing
	[04:20] <fabbione> daniels: basically a retarted mess
	[04:22] <daniels> fabbione: and this surprises you? :)
	[04:22] <Mitario> mvo_, enlighten me, what's that precisely (i'm not too familiar with apt internals)
	[04:23] <fabbione> daniels: considering you are upstream? no :P
	[04:23] <mvo_> Mitario: it is need to mark packages for install and removal and stuff
	[04:24] <Mitario> ah
	[04:24] <Mitario> well, do we need that?
	[04:24] <Mitario> i mean, we call synaptic --set-selections
	[04:24] <Mitario> don't we?
	[04:24] <mvo_> sure :) I was just thinking about the long-term needs
	[04:25] <mvo_> if we want to be 100% python in the future
	[04:25] <Mitario> ok :)
	[04:25] <Mitario> hmm, yeah
	[04:26] <daniels> fabbione: hey man, I'm not upstream for that monolithic POS :) i'm upstream for the working modular stuff
	[04:29] <fabbione> daniels: same POS :P
	=== fabbione hides
	[04:29] <rburton> mvo_, huge amounts of apt-pkg are missing
	[04:30] <mvo_> rburton: yes. fetcher, and installprogress too
	[04:34] <daniels> fabbione: hey man, modular == love
	=== fabbione kicks Library.tmpl
	[04:39] <fabbione> that's why it was not linking
	[04:39] <daniels> see?
	[04:39] <fabbione> in my imakefile
	[04:39] <fabbione> EXTRA_LDLIB = -L../../..
	[04:40] <fabbione> that is loaded before Library.tmpl
	[04:40] <fabbione> that of course has:
	[04:40] <fabbione> EXTRA_LDLIB =
	[04:42] <fabbione> ok changes the xi18 template
	[04:42] <fabbione> and that's it
	[04:42] <fabbione> that call isn't used anywhere else
	[04:43] <Mitario> mvo_, rburton, btw if we use synaptic as default, we need to let the packages depend on it (which is ok by me)
	[04:44] <rburton> yeah
	[04:44] <daniels> fabbione: this is why you need to use the modular tree, dude
	[04:50] <fabbione> daniels: dude.. it's not like i don't want to use it
	[04:50] <fabbione> daniels: we need to figure stuff out first anyway
	[04:51] <daniels> which stuff?
	[04:51] <fabbione> daniels: well I need to figure stuff out first
	[04:51] <fabbione> i am getting to know each single bit of the tree
	[04:52] <daniels> yeah
	=== enrico [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[05:05] <fabbione> i am definetly tired
	[05:05] <fabbione> it was such a simple solution that i couldn't even see it
	=== ajame [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[05:09] <lamont> amu: same card works on installed system, etc, etc. it's simply that the downloading of the firmware is b0rked
	[05:14] <daniels> jamping
	[05:14] <daniels> er
	[05:15] <amu> lamont: looks like, the other thing is driver itself, what happen after a suspend. If it comes up again, i suggest driver is acceped
	[05:16] <lamont> the other thing?
	=== amu sends ipw2100 to hell
	=== ajame [[email protected]] has left #ubuntu-devel ["Leaving"]
	[05:18] <amu> lamont: loading a driver is a criteria, the sys should load them. But what we win, if the driver is loaded but under working conditions it crash all time ?
	[05:18] <lamont> true
	[05:18] <amu> best example ipw
	[05:28] <Mitario> rburton, mvo_ have an idea for the name of what is now called my 'update-center'?
	[05:29] <rburton> Mitario, erm... Available Upgrades?
	[05:29] <Mitario> yeah, i mean package and binary name
	[05:29] <Mitario> update-center is a little too 'big' for it
	[05:29] <Mitario> i mean, it just shows you the available updates, lets you select them and install them
	=== fabbione starts the X variant of the Ubuntu dance
	[05:30] <rburton> ah
	[05:30] <Mitario> hmm, 'update-manager'?
	[05:30] <rburton> Mitario, deb-updater?
	[05:30] <Mitario> hmm, good idea
	=== Keybuk [[email protected]] has joined #ubuntu-devel
	[05:33] <Mitario> rburton, update-manager gets more votes here :)
	[05:33] <rburton> update-manager works for me
	[05:35] <mdz> fabbione: pong
	[05:37] <mdz> Kamion: proactive security stuff sounds like ->TB, or even ->HoaryKickoff
	[05:37] <Kamion> yeah, doesn't seem like a board issue until there's actually something for the board to decide on
	[05:37] <Kamion> -> HoaryHedgehog maybe?
	[05:37] <mdz> elmo_: libpng looks good as far as binaries and stuff; are we clear to amber?
	[05:38] <mdz> Kamion: I think so, yes
	[05:38] <mdz> at the kickoff meeting, we'll review all of the proposed featured and decide what we can do
	[05:38] <Kamion> I stuck a bunch of stuff in InstallerTeam
	[05:39] <Kamion> although maybe it fits better in HoaryHedgehog, I'll review
	[05:41] <Kamion> daniels: is it seen as a problem that Xcb's name clashes with that of a cut buffer library?
	[05:42] <Mitario> rburton, oh, about the configuration, like if the user even wants an automatic updates check, shall we put those in gconf?
	[05:42] <Mitario> or do we need a more general config something
	[05:44] <rburton> probably a good idea, with a check box in the UI somewhere
	[05:44] <Mitario> yeah ok, but which config back-end do we use?
	[05:44] <Mitario> best thing would be some kind of Computer -> System Configuration -> Automatic Updates configure app
	[05:44] <lamont> Kamion: am I correct in believing that d-i needs Packages, not Packages.gz?
	[05:45] <Mitario> and I like to use gconf for that
	[05:45] <Kamion> lamont: I thought it could cope with either
	[05:45] <Kamion> for ext in '' '.gz'; do
	[05:45] <Kamion> pkgfile="$comp/debian-installer/binary-$ARCH/Packages$ext"
	[05:45] <Kamion> lamont: WHICH Packages? :-)
	=== lamont will try it that way.
	[05:46] <Kamion> lamont: debian-installer/binary-$ARCH, or just binary-$ARCH?
	[05:46] <Mitario> but enabling the update-notifier could be better arranged at distro-level
	[05:46] <lamont> well, turns out that not having main/debian-installer/binary-i386/Packages* was kinda fatal. :)
	[05:46] <Kamion> certainly you need one or the other
	[05:46] <Kamion> what are you trying to do?
	[05:46] <lamont> and the error message was a bit less than helpful for a while...
	[05:46] <lamont> install DVD
	[05:46] <Keybuk> it'd be better having a "Software" system configuration dialog, from which you could edit sources.list etc.
	[05:46] <mvo_> Mitario: apt has it's own config system
	[05:46] <Kamion> lamont: you know, I could probably just build one on little with considerably less faff ...
	[05:47] <Mitario> mvo_, ok, but the user should be able to configure if the update-notifier is started at for example login
	[05:47] <lamont> Kamion: so I started with our install release CD, and dropped in a new pool and dists. kinda nuked a couple things..
	[05:47] <Kamion> what extra stuff are you trying to include?
	[05:47] <mvo_> agreed
	[05:47] <lamont> all of main, restricted, and little bits of universe (gotta have frozen bubble, dammit)
	[05:47] <lamont> then I dropped the open CD in to flesh out the 4.x GB
	[05:47] <Mitario> mvo_, what kind of mechanism can we use for that..
	[05:47] <Kamion> lamont: mmmkay
	[05:48] <Kamion> I think we should start building DVDs for Hoary, personally
	[05:48] <Kamion> although maybe weekly rather than daily
	[05:48] <lamont> Kamion: it gave my dvd burner something to do while the livecd images were building yesterday
	[05:48] <Kamion> bit uncomfortable with chewing 12GB a day :)
	[05:48] <lamont> Kamion: if you built me 4GB, I could download it in somewhere around 14 days
	[05:48] <mvo_> Mitario: we could use the apt conf file mechanism for this, it's pretty flexible and generic. but then we will have to link against it :/
	[05:48] <daniels> Kamion: not really, we've dealt with this sort of thing before; library vs binary
	[05:49] <lamont> or pay through the nose
	[05:49] <Kamion> lamont: jigdo, dude :)
	[05:49] <Kamion> might not even put the DVDs up for download most of the time
	[05:49] <lamont> gonna have to learn that sometime, eh?
	[05:50] <lamont> fwiw, my solution was to add main/debian-installer/binary-i386 to my mirror, and then things are "just dealt with"
	[05:50] <lamont> although the mirror only has .gz for Packages and Sources, hence the question
	[05:52] <Kamion> lamont: I'd've thought just Packages.gz would be fine; if not, there's a bug. Make sure it shows up in dists/warty/Release ...
	=== Kamion does 'cvs -nq up' in his debian-cd checkout, and fears
	[05:52] <lamont> that's all there - It was an early victim of the "d-i missing, but error not clear to this moron" thinking
	[05:52] <lamont> freshening a few depends into my archive, and then I'll burn another
	[05:53] <Kamion> there are a number of things which can easily go wrong; you get used to them fairly quickly and learn to automatically avoid them ...
	[05:53] <lamont> md5sums.txt is just for warm fuzzies, yes?
	[05:53] <Kamion> one gotcha is: you cannot have more than one debian-installer Packages file (i.e. multiple components).
	[05:53] <Kamion> lamont: no, cdrom-checker looks at it
	[05:53] <lamont> ok.
	[05:54] <Kamion> technically optional, in that cdrom-checker is optional
	[05:54] <fabbione> mdz: elmo said that he was waiting for you to "amber"
	[05:54] <Kamion> you'll run into the multiple-d-i-Packages problem with restricted firmware udebs; the standard workaround is to just cat the two Packages files together
	[05:54] <Mitario> mvo_, another then, when are you going to check when/if the upgrade-notification daemon should be started?
	[05:55] <Kamion> (so you end up with dists/warty/main/debian-installer/binary-/Packages mentioning stuff in pool/restricted/, but, well, can't be helped ...)
	=== fabbione just found a way to simply xorg build dep and patches of one level... just because he opened his eyes
	[05:55] <lamont> Kamion: trivial to generate though
	[05:56] <Kamion> lamont: yep
	[05:57] <mdz> fabbione: do you have advisory text written?
	[06:01] <Kamion> eventually, I hope to make it that you can install debian-cd from hoary and build Hoary CDs ...
	[06:01] <Kamion> but that's a ways away
	[06:02] <fabbione> mdz: i was going to copy the one from joey
	[06:02] <fabbione> mdz: i don't have anything better than that
	[06:02] <Mitario> mvo_, we can put the daemon in the default session
	[06:02] <mdz> fabbione: ok, I will write it
	[06:02] <fabbione> mdz: ok
	[06:03] <mvo_> Mitario: yes
	[06:03] <Mitario> and let the daemon check for a gconf/configuration key
	[06:03] <Mitario> gconf would be the nicest
	[06:04] <lamont> Kamion: thanks
	[06:05] <Mitario> mvo_, good ideas (tm) sjoerd simons
	[06:05] <Mitario> :p
	[06:07] <sjoerd> Mitario: hehe
	[06:07] <Mitario> ^^
	[06:11] <aj> warty includes some debs straight from experimental?
	[06:12] <daniels> aj: specific example?
	[06:12] <aj> gnome-terminal
	[06:12] <elmo_> mdz: yes
	[06:12] <daniels> er, all our GNOME stuff was done in-house and later contributed back to Debian by way of an upload to experimental, IIRC
	[06:12] <elmo_> mdz: sorry, I sent you mail, but it didn't work, cos of where I am
	[06:13] <Kamion> gnome-terminal may be an exception
	[06:13] <Kamion> it doesn't seem to have been updated in warty since June
	[06:13] <Kamion> presumably we just took a convenient package of whatever was the latest version
	[06:13] <Kamion> (upstream)
	[06:14] <Kamion> I remember seb128 mentioning that there hadn't been a new upstream release of gnome-terminal for 2.8
	[06:14] <Mitario> reminds me
	[06:14] <Mitario> seb128, here?
	[06:14] <seb128> they release 2.8.0 last week
	[06:15] <seb128> released
	[06:15] <Mitario> seb128, if you want to create a new trashapplet package, just diff against trashapplet in gnome-applets
	[06:15] <seb128> I don't
	[06:15] <Mitario> ok :)
	[06:16] <seb128> warty has been released, no new version
	[06:16] <seb128> and hoary will have gnome-applets 2.10 ...
	[06:16] <Mitario> ok
	[06:16] <seb128> what about gnome-terminal ?
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	[06:21] <aj> does kill -HUP $NVI_PID make nvi write a save file, or is it something else?
	[06:21] <seb128> for gnome-terminal, 2.7.3 has been released the 30th of june and 2.8.0 the 16th of october
	[06:21] <seb128> that's why it has not changed in warty
	[06:22] <Keybuk> Mitario, rburton: http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/software.png
	[06:22] <Mitario> Keybuk, cool, a friendly sources.list editor?
	[06:22] <Kamion> SIGHUP
	[06:22] <Kamion> SIGTERM
	[06:22] <Kamion> If the current buffer has changed since it was last written in
	[06:22] <Kamion> its entirety, the editor attempts to save the modified file so
	[06:22] <Kamion> it can be later recovered. See the vi/ex Reference manual sec
	[06:22] <Kamion> tion entitled Recovery for more information.
	[06:22] <Keybuk> shrug just done a UI mock-up to inspire your discussion :p
	[06:22] <Kamion> (apologies for UTF-8)
	[06:23] <Mitario> Keybuk, aah, well this looks great really :)
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	[06:24] <Mitario> I would like to see something like this in the menu :)
	[06:24] <Mitario> and as soon as you check the 'internet update' checkbox, the notification daemon is loaded, and a gconf property is set
	[06:25] <Keybuk> would be good, wouldn't it
	[06:25] <Mitario> yeah :)
	=== Mitario is hacking on update-notification atm
	[06:25] <Mitario> upgrade*
	[06:25] <Mitario> still have to come to a consistancy on those update/upgrade terms :)
	[06:26] <Keybuk> I'd use "update" to refer to changes in individual package versions and "upgrade" to indicate a new release
	[06:26] <Mitario> i like to see it like this: there are updates for packages available, as soon as you install those updates, you upgrade the package, but of course, i can be totally wrong :)
	[06:27] <Keybuk> Kamion: interesting that it uses and instead of just and
	[06:28] <Kamion> Keybuk: that's what happens when you write ``foo'' in groff source
	[06:29] <Keybuk> yeah, but why double single-quotes and not just a double-quote ?
	[06:29] <Kamion> because that's what the manual page says to do :)
	[06:29] <Kamion> `` can't count as a single output glyph in groff
	[06:30] <Keybuk> heh
	[06:30] <Kamion> there are other ways to get an open double quote, by not using such silly markup
	[06:30] <mvo_> Keybuk: interessting mock-up
	[06:30] <Mitario> indeed
	[06:34] <aj> err, does warty contain m/any reversions? ("eww, the version in sarge has crappy new features, let's go back to version X") ?
	[06:36] <Kamion> none that spring to mind; the only thing we had to seriously back out from was mozilla-firefox 1.0pr1
	[06:36] <Mitario> mvo_, still around btw? :)
	[06:36] <Kamion> which isn't in sarge or sid
	[06:36] <Kamion> mdz might remember things I don't
	[06:37] <aj> of the 989 packages updated in ubuntu (ie, ones with "ubuntu" version strings), 613 are older than the version now in sarge, 294 are still newer than the version in unstable
	[06:38] <Kamion> yeah, we stopped automatically syncing newer versions back in June ...
	[06:38] <aj> (older == lower version)
	[06:38] <mvo_> Mitario: I'm about to leave
	[06:38] <mvo_> :)
	[06:38] <aj> know the date off hand?
	[06:38] <Kamion> 28th I think
	[06:38] <Mitario> mvo_, hehe :) have fun!
	[06:38] <aj> so four months
	[06:38] <mdz> 28th June, yes
	[06:38] <mvo_> thanks! bye everyone
	[06:38] <Mitario> byebye
	[06:38] <mdz> most of the ones which are newer are likely actually the same Debian revision, with an ubuntu revision or two attached
	[06:39] <Kamion> aj: might be worth looking at bugs we resolved as NOTWARTY
	[06:39] <mdz> there are very few places where we've taken new upstream versions ahead of Debian, GNOME being the primary one
	[06:39] <aj> hrm, upstream version...
	[06:39] <Kamion> we'll probably have a better idea once we've merged hoary
	[06:40] <Kamion> (re-branch sid, apply warty diffs - or implement it the other way round if that happens to be a pain)
	=== Mitario can't wait for x.org :)
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	[06:41] <fabbione> Mitario: you will have to wait a few weeks
	[06:42] <Mitario> ah, well, still can't wait for it :-)
	[06:42] <Mitario> but it's worth the waiting
	[06:42] <aj> hrm, 165 still have newer upstream than debian; 30 have newer upstream than testing, but not unstable, 2 have been removed from unstable
	[06:42] <fabbione> Mitario: i am afraid you will be disappointed
	[06:42] <Mitario> fabbione, really?
	[06:42] <Mitario> wel, i've heard it's not really stable and such
	[06:43] <Mitario> but we have daniel ;)
	[06:43] <fabbione> Mitario: a lot of people believe X.org is "soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo" much better than Xfree86
	[06:43] <Mitario> nah, i just like the compmanager + eye-candy :)
	[06:43] <fabbione> the code base is the same
	[06:43] <fabbione> with another name
	[06:43] <fabbione> a bunch of updated drivers
	[06:43] <fabbione> and the "translucency" thing or how they call it
	[06:44] <aj> ugh, two many options, my brain is exploding
	[06:44] <Mitario> only thing I would add to my current graphical environment are the shadows
	[06:44] <fabbione> it's not going to make your computer running any faster or any better
	[06:45] <lamont> Kamion: please push 20041022-04 as rc2
	[06:46] <Kamion> lamont: URL, for the weak of mind?
	[06:50] <lamont> people.ubuntulinux.org/~lamont/testing/LiveCD/20041022-04/warty-live-i386-20041022-04.iso I think
	[06:51] <Kamion> ok
	[06:57] <lamont> and torrents and all that?
	[06:58] <Kamion> lamont: yup. all syncing now.
	[06:58] <lamont> way kewl
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	[07:10] <lamont> hrmpf. still have 300MB of free space on the install dvd... what to add,... what to add.
	=== amu bruns 22-04
	[07:11] <amu> lamont: kde duck
	[07:11] <lamont> amu: no. that way lies terror
	[07:11] <lamont> and pain
	[07:11] <lamont> and insufficient space
	[07:11] <lamont> :-)
	[07:11] <amu> lamont: better idea doom3-demo ;)
	[07:12] <lamont> I don't want to encourage people who get my personal selection thinking about kde..
	=== lamont doesn't do many first-person-shooter games
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	[07:13] <mdz> lamont: only 300M? what did you stuff it with?
	[07:14] <lamont> mdz: all of main and restricted, bunch of games from universe, all of my (maintained) packages, source and binary
	[07:14] <lamont> + theopencd that I brought back from Oxford
	[07:14] <lamont> that source thing kinda fills up the disk faster. :)
	[07:15] <lamont> hoary feature goal: frozen-bubble and kobodeluxe in main!!!
	[07:16] <amu> lamont: kphone,skype :)
	[07:16] <lamont> the local mirror has: 3945396 /org/ubuntu/tree/pool for a du -s output
	[07:17] <lamont> skype isn't in the archive, and kphone is kde
	[07:17] <lamont> amu: you're just being silly. :-P
	[07:20] <amu> scientists may have right, irc hebetated ;)
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	[07:35] <Kamion> elmo_: meh
	[07:35] <Kamion> elmo_: so, you know I was complaining about dists/warty/Release saying Preview ...
	[07:35] <Kamion> elmo_: guess what I just found in debian-cd
	[07:35] <Kamion> ./CONF.sh:export OFFICIAL="Preview"
	[07:35] <Kamion> d'oh!
	[07:36] <Kamion> let's just retcon and say that warty is a Technology Preview :-)
	[07:36] <Kamion> sabdfl: where was that release checklist thing?
	=== Kamion sets OFFICIAL back to Alpha
	[07:38] <sabdfl> Kamion: http://wiki.ubuntulinux.org/ReleaseChecklist
	[07:38] <sabdfl> cunningly unlinked-to
	[07:42] <Kamion> aha, perfect
	[07:42] <Kamion> check the volume labels on ISO's for all architectures
	[07:42] <Kamion> heh, obviously we didn't follow it :)
	[07:42] <sabdfl> youre welcome :-)
	[07:42] <sabdfl> i was writing it as things unfolded, sort of a blow by blow account
	[07:42] <sabdfl> i'm sure there will be more to add the night before hoary ;-)
	[07:43] <sabdfl> 90 days before: find 3 bourkha's
	=== Kamion fleshes out that comment a bit in case he gets hit by the proverbial bus
	[07:49] <mdz> Summary: It goes straight over without any "visible" problem...
	[07:49] <mdz> but i hate errors mostly at boot/sex time
	=== mdz scratches his head
	[07:50] <lamont> Kamion: I've tried 25000kg trucks, they're no fun... but a hell of a ride when they bounce you down the road...
	[07:51] <mdz> I'm not sure if that's a bug report or a complaint of a personal problem
	[07:56] <Kamion> mdz: I did wonder about that
	[07:57] <Kamion> lamont: ouch!
	[07:57] <Kamion> lamont: we should rechristen you "Man of Steel"
	[08:00] <lamont> Kamion: Jan 1996, really quite an interesting experience...
	[08:01] <lamont> looking out the windshield of your full-size Ford Bronco as you spin backwards down the interstate at ~25MPH, at the grill of the Freightliner doing 50MPH. ISTR he had quite the interesting look on his face...
	[08:02] <lamont> getting dropped off at work by the nice state trooper was kinda fun too
	[08:06] <lamont> although one coworker told me he quit asking "what if LaMont gets hit by a truck" that day...
	[08:09] <mdz> hmm
	[08:09] <mdz> we never did come to a good conclusion on naming for the security advisories
	[08:10] <sabdfl> USN?
	=== lamont can't think of anything better than USN
	[08:21] <lamont> Kamion: and for the record, d-i doesn't care if a Packages file is 0 length... Just ignores that one.
	[08:21] <lamont> (in the yet-another-non-bug-lamont-thought-he-found-for-a-while category)
	[08:26] <bob2> USA!
	[08:30] <lamont> could do WSA, HSA, GSA, PSA and be release specifc....
	[08:30] <lamont> but that would be silly
	[08:31] <lamont> mdz: how long do we want to leave rc2-live as rc2 before we bless it and throw it out the door? I'm thinking Sat eve US time at the latest
	[08:31] <mdz> lamont: please send out a call for testing
	[08:32] <mdz> maybe best to follow up to my previous one, and point to the new URL
	[08:32] <lamont> u-d@?
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	[08:34] <lamont> your previous one, or mine?
	[08:39] <Mitario> um, wtf?
	[08:39] <Mitario> /usr/include/bits/sigset.h:103: error: two or more data types in declaration of `__sigismember'
	[08:39] <thom> tseng: please send me mail about NetMan,if you would
	[08:48] <mdz> > I've just installed Ubuntu 1.0, and most things have gone well
	[08:48] <mdz> :-)
	[08:51] <maskie> mdz, did not know year 2001 had a month 0 :)
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	[10:08] <mdz> hornbeck\|away: ping?
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	[10:19] <doko_> hmm, I'm unable to find the eps logos. anyone knows where to look?
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	[11:05] <Mitario> hmm, lets see wether my gnome-session + upgrade-notification packages work :)
	[11:05] <Mitario> brb
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	[11:17] <Mitario> yay! works
	[11:26] <hornbeck> mdz: yes?
	[11:28] <mdz> hornbeck: sent email
	[11:28] <hornbeck> ok
	[11:29] <hornbeck> mdz: I will moderate if you want
	[11:29] <mdz> hornbeck: ok, please reply to the message and let jdub know
	[11:29] <mdz> hornbeck: and thanks
	[11:30] <hornbeck> no prob
	[11:32] <hornbeck> plovs: ping!
	[11:45] <Mitario> anyone knows stuff about the auto cdbs macro's for building a deb?
	[11:45] <Mitario> like debhelper.mk and gnome.mk
	[11:54] <hornbeck> plovs: did you get the mail from mark?
	[11:55] <Mitario> hmm, anyone knows a place where I could host some packages?
	=== lamont runs off for a little bit