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More than 400 black actors, artists and ministers are bringing the Gospel to life in the audio book, The Bible Experience:The Complete Bible. Farai Chideya talks with producer Kyle Bowser and actress Wendy Raquel Robinson, who lends her voice to the project.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, moving on, Forest Whitaker as Moses, Tisha Campbell Martin as Mary Magdalene - well, that's all in "The Bible Experience." A New Testament edition was released in 2006. This edition is billed as "The Complete Bible." It doesn't have one person reading the gospels. It features nearly 400 African-American artists, actors and ministers, plus sound effects.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Just listen to Blair Underwood's rendition of Jesus on the cross.</s>Mr. BLAIR UNDERWOOD (Actor): (As Jesus) My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, we've got two people affiliated with the project with us today. Kyle Bowser, he co-produced "The Bible Experience" and actress Wendy Raquel Robinson, one of the actors in "The Bible Experience," and she also stars in the CW series, "The Game."</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Hi folks, how are you doing?</s>Ms. WENDY RAQUEL ROBINSON (Actress): Great.</s>Mr. KYLE BOWSER (Co-producer, "The Bible Experience: The Complete Bible"): Great. How are you?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm doing great. Now, Kyle, how did this project come about?</s>Mr. KYLE BOWSER (Co-producer, "The Bible Experience: The Complete Bible"): Hmm. A couple of winters ago, while Christmas shopping, I purchased an audio bible and hoped that I would finally get through the Bible by listening to it in my car. And I had failed to read the Bible as I'd promised. And after listening to a couple of disks, I was very disappointed. It just didn't really resonate with me. There was a lack of real production value. And the idea struck that perhaps we should try to do this ourselves and bring the Hollywood experience that we have to the process. And I think we have accomplished that goal.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Were you ever afraid of crossing a line and saying, okay, we're going to make this too Hollywood - the Bible is going too Hollywood? And I'm thinking of all the criticism of Mel Gibson's movie, "The Passion of the Christ."</s>Mr. KYLE BOWSER (Co-producer, "The Bible Experience: The Complete Bible"): No, that thought never really occurred to me. I think the gospel is applicable wherever you go including Hollywood. If anything, I was a little concerned about the idea of profiting from the Bible. But after consulting with some theologians and my grandmother, I got over that quickly.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, Wendy - now, you were the voice of an angel in the book of Revelations. Let's take a listen to that.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Unidentified Man: A second angel followed and said,</s>Ms. WENDY RAQUEL ROBINSON (Actress): (As Angel) Fallen. Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.</s>Ms. WENDY RAQUEL ROBINSON (Actress): That (unintelligible).</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What did you - yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So - I mean, it's not bad to be an angel.</s>Ms. WENDY RAQUEL ROBINSON (Actress): No.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Other than that, what made you want to do this?</s>Ms. WENDY RAQUEL ROBINSON (Actress): You know, it's amazing. I feel like I got kind of bombarded the project. I knew Robi Reed who was also the casting director, and (unintelligible) who was actually working on it. And one day, I happened to be there and I saw a demo of what they were doing. And I said, hands down. How can I be a part of this?</s>Ms. WENDY RAQUEL ROBINSON (Actress): So I just pretty much put myself into it because I was just so drawn by the emotion, by - I mean, of course, you know, any time you're doing something that's related to the Gospel and to the Bible, you know - immediately I was drawn to that. But it was just so different from any project that I've ever been attached to or had even, you know, been around. So I was just - I basically - I bombarded the project myself.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, Kyle was just saying that he had a hard time listening to other audio bibles. Obviously, people are getting very much into the iPod…</s>Ms. WENDY RAQUEL ROBINSON (Actress): Mm-hmm.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: …and podcasting, listening to this-that and the other in your car. Do you think that this opens up other people to the - I mean, we just did a series on religion not too long ago. Certainly, not every one is Christian. Not every black person is Christian, but there is…</s>Ms. WENDY RAQUEL ROBINSON (Actress): Right.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: …plenty. Do you think this opens up new experiences for people who are plugging in or plugged into Christianity?</s>Ms. WENDY RAQUEL ROBINSON (Actress): Oh, I think it definitely does because not only is it the actual goal in its presentation, but it is the, you know, it's the true word of God, too. So you're getting both in one, you know? It's really difficult for me to listen to books on tape or, you know, just basically even - I don't care if these just sermons or anything like that.</s>Ms. WENDY RAQUEL ROBINSON (Actress): But with this, you know, you'd get the fullness of it, you know? You get the sound effects; you get the emotions; you get the authentic word of God, you know? And it's really easy listening to, and before you know it, you'd do the entire New Testament, you know - before you know it, so it's awesome.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Kyle, now, the first Bible experience was the New Testament. It won 2007 audio book of the year - that's high praise. What kind of fan mail have you gotten that really warms your heart?</s>Mr. KYLE BOWSER (Co-producer, "The Bible Experience: The Complete Bible"): Well, I'm glad you ask that question because so often, people ask about the success of the project and it counts the question in a monetary context. I think the only way to really measure the success of "The Bible Experience" is to look at the fan mail, to look at the e-mails and the cards and the letters and the personal testimony that we hear.</s>Mr. KYLE BOWSER (Co-producer, "The Bible Experience: The Complete Bible"): I have a cousin who, three months ago, was struck by a car while riding his bike. And he's been laying paralyzed for the last three months. And on his second day in the hospital, he whispered in his wife's ear, asking for her to bring a copy of "The Bible Experience" to his room. That's the kind of evidence of the success of "The Bible Experience." It speaks to your soul.</s>Mr. KYLE BOWSER (Co-producer, "The Bible Experience: The Complete Bible"): And for me, as a Christian and many others, as Wendy said, it is the definitive word of God. But for others, it's enjoyable because it is so dramatic. It is so emotionally powerful. You know, it's historically accurate whether or not you apply the faith analysis to the word. So much of what's written in the Bible has been proven to be historically accurate and we capture all of that so wonderfully.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Wendy, what's it like for you to be a part of this ensemble? It's one of the largest ensemble cast of black actors, I guess you could say.</s>Ms. WENDY RAQUEL ROBINSON (Actress): It's bigger than "Roots."</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It is.</s>Ms. WENDY RAQUEL ROBINSON (Actress): No. Oh, it is. I feel like it's a part of history. I'm sorry; I didn't mean to cut you off. Go ahead.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: No, that's - it's true.</s>Ms. WENDY RAQUEL ROBINSON (Actress): But I'm honored, you know? I mean, Blair Underwood, Forest Whitaker, you know, Angela Bassett. So, so many of the celebrities that I admire and look up to were a part of this. But that's not why I was drawn to it, but it just takes it to a whole another level for me on so many different levels.</s>Ms. WENDY RAQUEL ROBINSON (Actress): And to see these other artists, you know, praising God through their work, you know. It's an anointed piece, you know, because you can't half-step with God. You know what I mean? You have to really drink it, so when they did the interpretations in the studio and if you even get a chance to see the video portion of it, it's amazing. I mean, it just brings you to tears emotionally. And just, you know, really reliving those moments, you can actually see these characters within the Bible come to life.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Kyle, very quickly - I mean, super quick. Any future plans? It's - you kind of gone to both testaments, what have you got left?</s>Mr. KYLE BOWSER (Co-producer, "The Bible Experience: The Complete Bible"): Well, we - meaning me and my partners - are all thinking about different ways that we can continue to share this wonderful experience in whatever medium is available - visually, through audio product, through all of the distribution technologies that are available. So please, stay tuned for that.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right. Well, Kyle and Wendy, thanks so much.</s>Mr. KYLE BOWSER (Co-producer, "The Bible Experience: The Complete Bible"): Thank you.</s>Ms. WENDY RAQUEL ROBINSON (Actress): Oh, great. Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Kyle Bowser co-produced "The Bible Experience: The Complete Bible," and actress Wendy Raquel Robinson is one of the voices featured in "The Bible Experience." She's also starred the CW TV network show, "The Game."</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And that is our show for today. Thank you for sharing your time with us.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: To listen to the show or subscribe to our podcast, visit our Web site, nprnewsandnotes.org. No spaces, just nprnewsandnotes.org. To join the conversation or sign up for our newsletter, visit our blog at nprnewsandviews.org.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: NEWS & NOTES was created by NPR News and the African-American Public Radio Consortium.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Tomorrow, how success can make or break a family.

NPR's Rachel Martin speaks with young voters who are going to the polls in a general election for the first time.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You have heard it again and again - this is an extraordinary election, unlike any other in recent memory. OK, so now imagine it's your first election. We talked to a few young voters making their choices for the very first time in a general election.</s>ASHANTI MARTINEZ: So my name's Ashanti Martinez (ph). I'm 20 years old. I'm from Prince George's County, Md., and I'm voting for Hillary Clinton.</s>LAUREN SMITH: Hi, I'm Lauren Smith. I'm 20 years old and I'm voting for Trump.</s>GENESIS LARIN: My name is Genesis Larin. I'm from Houston, Texas. And I'd say I'm a conflicted voter but leaning towards Hillary Clinton.</s>NICK TOMCHIK: My name is Nicholas Tomchik (ph). I'm from Winslow, Maine. I'm 20 years old, and I'm voting for Gary Johnson.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right, so I want to learn more about how each of you came to your decision. So I'm going to start with you, Lauren. You're voting for Donald Trump. Did you support him in the Republican primary?</s>LAUREN SMITH: No, I actually supported Ted Cruz. And, you know, I have to say, there's no question that this election cycle has been unbelievable. So I'm voting for Trump because not only am I a Republican but he has a pro-life agenda. He's for a limited government, and that's what I support. Am I happy with him? No, absolutely not.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Nick, you've decided to support the Libertarian candidate, Gary Johnson. How come? Why not Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton? Why go with a third-party option?</s>NICK TOMCHIK: All my life, I've gone against the status quo. I'm a Libertarian myself. I definitely believe in what Gary Johnson has to offer, his policies - minimizing the role of government, pro-choice. You know, we've got to cut the wasteful spending. We've got to offer an alternative. And especially with this election being so, you know, as Lauren said, you know, pretty much crazy, we've got to have another choice. And he brings that to America. And I really like that.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Genesis, you said you're leaning reluctantly towards Hillary Clinton. But I understand that's a big deal because you're a registered Republican.</s>GENESIS LARIN: I actually did not register with, like, a specific party affiliation. But yes, I am, I guess, leaning towards Hillary Clinton just because I'm very disappointed in the candidates that I have to choose from. But I just can't support what Donald Trump has said, even though I did vote Republican for the primaries. However, I did vote for Marco Rubio. I feel like this election, at least for me, has come down to voting against someone instead of a vote for someone that actually aligns with a lot of, like, my views for certain issues.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And you haven't found that in either of the major party candidates?</s>GENESIS LARIN: It was mentioned before that Hillary Clinton, her experience as far as policies - and I do take into account her experience. And I guess I feel comfortable because she has been around.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What do you not like about her? What gives you pause about her?</s>GENESIS LARIN: Part of it is her scandals. But it's also she has, you know, kind of switched sides on some of the policies. So if anything, I was kind of confused on, like, exactly where she stands because it just comes off as she's saying certain sides just to get a vote.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Ashanti, what do you think when you hear that? I mean, you're an ardent Hillary Clinton supporter, but she's had kind of a tough time making inroads with people your age. What are the top issues for you?</s>ASHANTI MARTINEZ: One of them would be definitely college affordability, making sure that no matter where you are on the income spectrum in this country that you can go to college debt-free or that you can leave college debt-free. The next issue for me is health care, making sure that folks are able to have quality health care in this country. And then I guess the next issue for me that really comes home is criminal justice reform. Too many people of black and brown skin color, that look like me, go to jail, oftentimes, for sentences and things that they shouldn't have.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I want to ask you, Lauren - you heard Genesis say that she identifies as a Republican. She voted for Marco Rubio in the primary, but she's considering voting for Hillary Clinton. What do you say to her?</s>LAUREN SMITH: I think as a Republican, I don't understand how you could support Hillary Clinton. And I understand many of what Trump has said is, quite frankly, deplorable. And I completely get that. However, if you're a Republican, if you believe in limited government, if you're pro-life, vote for Donald Trump. And again, that's the issues that I fully support and that I want to see happen in America. I want Roe v. Wade to be overturned. So Genesis, what I would say to you is, what issues are holding you back? And why can't you vote for Donald Trump, if I can ask you that...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Sure.</s>LAUREN SMITH: ...Just head-on?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Genesis, you want to answer?</s>GENESIS LARIN: Yeah. So I'm actually pro-choice. I do...</s>LAUREN SMITH: OK.</s>GENESIS LARIN: ...Believe that climate change is something that we need to address. That being said, I've never particularly, I guess, been completely on board with bigger government. And that's something that I think is what makes me more conservative, even though I guess I'm more left-leaning.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You're that coveted independent, Genesis, who everyone wants.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You're that coveted middle-of-the-road voter.</s>GENESIS LARIN: (Laughter) Yeah. And I feel - the way I approached the selection wasn't blue or red or green, even. It was I wanted to find a candidate that I think was most representative of my view and whose competency in doing this, at being president, I would feel comfortable voting for.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Nick, let me ask you this - are you feeling enthusiastic about your choice? Like, are you - how do you feel about supporting Gary Johnson?</s>NICK TOMCHIK: Yeah. I honestly am very enthusiastic about supporting him. That's the thing that I think makes me different and also maybe the Libertarians or the independents that are, you know, supporting Gary Johnson. They're actually voting for someone because they really like his policies.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And you don't buy the argument that a vote for Gary Johnson or Jill Stein, on the other side - the Green Party, is a de facto vote for the other party, be it right or left?</s>NICK TOMCHIK: Not at all. I definitely think that that plays into the fear-mongering because from a lot of people I hear, they want to vote for Gary but they're - you know, they tell me that argument. And essentially, if all the people who, you know, actually voted third party - said that they're not going to vote for the third party because of that voted third party, then, you know, Gary Johnson has a huge chance of winning.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Lauren, your candidate, Donald Trump, has had a hard time getting the kind of support from women voters that he needs to put him in good standing when November 8 rolls around. Why do you think that is, especially when you talk to your peers, other young women? I mean, how much of it - of the reluctance has to do with the kind of rhetoric we've heard from him, those recent comments on the "Access Hollywood" tape? Is that coming up in conversations?</s>LAUREN SMITH: You know, a lot of my peers, especially the women, do support Donald Trump. I don't condone sexual assault. I mean, that's utterly ridiculous. But we have to remember that was a long time ago. I mean, 2005 happened almost 11 years ago. So as far as Donald Trump's comment on women go - does it bother me? It does in some ways, but I'm choosing to look at the bigger picture. And I'm choosing to look at America as a whole instead of trying to, you know, just go and tear Trump to shreds over what he said in the past. So the women that I have spoken to, especially the the Women for Trump here in Virginia, of course they support him.</s>ASHANTI MARTINEZ: If I can chime in, Rachel.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Go for it, Ashanti.</s>ASHANTI MARTINEZ: For me - right? - I've talked to a lot of women. I'm around women often. And these Trump allegations about him sexually assaulting women and bragging about it is deplorable. And it's something that is definitely on people's minds, especially around my age group. But this isn't the first instance, right? We look at the comments that he had with former Miss America and former Miss Universe contestants. We look at the comments that he had about contributors on different networks. We look at the comments that he's had of people on his own show, on "The Apprentice," and how he's treated women throughout his career, whether it be in real estate or whether it be on television. So to me, to say that these things don't matter is wrong. This man has so many different things that don't speak to our country as being inclusive and as progressive as we should be. And I think that's why he's not qualified.</s>LAUREN SMITH: Well, I certainly understand that position. But I also have to say I don't want Hillary Clinton as president.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: This is your first time voting in a presidential election. So how you feeling? I mean, what are the conversations that you're having at home or with your friends? Are people animated to get out and vote? Is there a sense of apathy? I'm going to start with Lauren. What are people talking about in your circles?</s>LAUREN SMITH: There's one side, the 50 percent - they're very apathetic. They don't want to get out and vote. You know, I've lost friends because of the way I'm voting. And, in some ways, I understand that.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You've lost friends, really?</s>LAUREN SMITH: I have, yeah. But I would say that as a 20-year-old, as my first election, I can't believe these are the two candidates I have to choose from. I think - like, I don't know about you all, but this is just unbelievable.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Anyone else want to weigh in on this? What are the conversations...</s>NICK TOMCHIK: I...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Nick, go ahead.</s>NICK TOMCHIK: Yeah, I agree 100 percent. And I can't wait till it's over. It's been very crazy. I've had some (laughter) - I've had some tough conversations with, you know, friends and family because I've got some family that's, you know, voting Trump because they don't like, you know, the Clinton, you know, scandals and, you know, a lot of her immigration stances, and then also my other friends and family who are voting Clinton because they don't want Trump elected. So I'm kind of in the middle here, you know, preaching the alternative. And it's really tough. And from what I've seen, people are, you know, in my circle, at least, excited to get out and vote.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Ashanti, are you excited? I mean, it's the first time you get to go to your polling station and cast a vote for president.</s>ASHANTI MARTINEZ: Yeah, no, I'm extremely excited. I mean, I've been with her since she announced. And it's one of those things where I'm looking forward to her presidency, right? And I'm looking forward to January and what her next four years is going to look like in the White House.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I will leave it there. Ashanti Martinez, Genesis Larin, Lauren Smith and Nick Tomchik - they are voting in the presidential election for the first time.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Hey, you guys, thanks so much for talking with us.</s>ASHANTI MARTINEZ: Thanks for having us.</s>LAUREN SMITH: Thank you.</s>NICK TOMCHIK: Yeah, absolutely.

In this week's snapshot, actor and playwright Jeff Obafemi Carr stumbles across some old and new pitfalls in the Nashville neighborhood where he grew up.

Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor, Playwright): I came close to running out of luck, when I almost fell down a well - or was it a cesspool? I'm still not sure.</s>CHIDEYA: Today's weekly Snapshot comes from actor and playwright Jeff Obafemi Carr. He says if you ever happen to stumble and fall, the biggest trip could be who comes to your rescue?</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor, Playwright): I bought a house in the neighborhood I grew up in, near my widowed mother who still resides in my childhood home. I was lucky to buy it at a good price years ago. You see, we live in an inner city, speedily gentrifying community with increasing mignons of hip, progressive, urban pioneering neighbors.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor, Playwright): I just love the new politically correct terms for yuppies who decide that these little black neighborhoods have the cutest little cottages. All they need is for people to move into them that can give them the love, attention and exponentially increasing property values their presence alone can bring.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor, Playwright): These watchful neighbors then patrol the old hood with their cell phones handy. If they see something that just isn't right, they call up the codes department, anonymously of course, and cry foul. So a couple of weeks ago, my mom's hot water heater gave up the ghost and flooded the basement as a memorial. Yours truly drew the task of pulling 40 years of accumulated memories out of the basement to get to the flooding and save the day.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor, Playwright): Well, what do you know? One of the ever-vigilant friendly neighborhood preservationist saw the pile by the basement door and reported my mother's home as the site of a public dump. Welcome to America. Luckily, I'd already ordered a dumpster unbeknownst to the good neighbors, so I sped up its delivery, charged the iPod, put on my favorite work jeans and started attacking memory mountain one little bit at a time.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor, Playwright): Mom was going to help, but I told her I had it covered. I was jamming to the soundtrack of (unintelligible). Happy thoughts was sailing as I stepped into the mini mountain with my right foot. That's when it happened. I hadn't looked where I was stepping. If I had, I would have remembered I was directly over a hole in the ground my dad put a piece of wood over. And that was a good temporary fix, but I should mention that my dad passed away six years ago.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor, Playwright): Well, mix the way the five feet of junk, seven or eight years of rot, a fresh rain and a primary weight of a 6'2, 190-pound brother man on a size 13 boot, and what do you have - every bit of that mix headed two directions at blinding speed, forward and down.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor, Playwright): Instinct may be reached to both sides. And with a mix of luck and skill, I was able to catch myself just as I felt cold water rising up almost to my knee. There was no bottom.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor, Playwright): I said, whoa, out loud, then I had another thought. Wait a minute, is this a well or a sewer? Oh, crap - an unintentional pun. I pulled myself up as one of the tenants was singing some Italian aria in my ears.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor, Playwright): My foot and leg were covered with something wet and black. I immediately ran and grabbed the garden hose, sprayed off my boot and pants' leg, and thank god, my mom wasn't helping me out because it could have been her.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor, Playwright): As I stripped and prepped the washer for my clothes, I thought to myself that if I would have fallen in, all I could have done was scream for one of my neighbors to come and rescue me. I wonder if they would have come. And if they did, would they have said, hmm, promise you'll repaint in earth tones, preserve the subway tile in your bathroom and restore the original glass doorknobs in your hallway, and we'll pull you right out of there, neighbor. I guess I'm thankful I wasn't in that position this time because I would have been SOL -surely out of luck.</s>CHIDEYA: Jeff Obafemi Carr is an actor, playwright and co-host of the radio show "Freestyle." He lives in Nashville, Tennessee.

A new study says one in 50 people in the nation's capital have AIDS, and blacks comprise more than 80 percent of new cases in the city. Farai Chideya talks to Dr. Shannon Hader, who directs Washington, D.C.'s HIV/AIDS Administration.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: In the nation's capital, a killer is on the loose. It's been operating in America for decades now. We're talking about AIDS. Tomorrow is World AIDS Day. Today, we'll discuss staggering new information on how prevalent AIDS is in Washington D.C., particularly among African-Americans. Overall, the rate of AIDS cases in Washington D.C. is about 10 times higher than in the United States. Dr. Shannon Hader is the director of the D.C. HIV/AIDS Administration. Welcome.</s>Dr. SHANNON HADER (Director, D.C. HIV/AIDS Administration): Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, these are really some chocking numbers. Sixty percent of the city's residents are African-American, but 81 percent of new HIV cases in the city are among African-Americans. How many people are we really talking about?</s>Dr. SHANNON HADER (Director, D.C. HIV/AIDS Administration): Well, you know, we have about 12,500 people in the district right now living with HIV and AIDS, but about 80 percent of those are mainly African-American communities. So, we're talking a high number of people, not just a hundred or two hundred, but thousands.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What about the trend lines? Are you seeing these number of new infections increase?</s>Dr. SHANNON HADER (Director, D.C. HIV/AIDS Administration): Well, you know, certainly over the United States, the trend over the last decade has been increasing racial disparities and the HIV epidemic with more African-Americans affected. Here in the district, we have really good data for the last 2001 through 2006, and what we see is that we're not gaining much ground at this point in terms of reducing infections, although we seem to be holding a little bit even. And - but I think particularly among the women, the rates among women have been increasing over the last five or six years.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What percentage of women in the D.C. area are African-American who were infected?</s>Dr. SHANNON HADER (Director, D.C. HIV/AIDS Administration): Mm-hmm. Among all the women that we know are infected with HIV in the district, about 90 percent of them are African-American.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: With these numbers, with the racial disparities, what is being done? What are the approaches that you and other government, public health officials, nonprofits are taking to really start addressing this?</s>Dr. SHANNON HADER (Director, D.C. HIV/AIDS Administration): Well, I think what we're doing and what we need to continue to do is an attack on all fronts. First step is, information is power. These data, these hard facts give us a good picture for everyone at the individual level, at the community level, at the government level, at the policy level, to really wake up if they haven't and see the nature of the epidemic we're dealing with. Second, it's about services and it's about taking action, both to protect yourself and protect others. We are ramping what was already sort of a groundbreaking HIV policy in the district, which is this know your status, HIV tests should be just the same as knowing about your other routine health indicators.</s>Dr. SHANNON HADER (Director, D.C. HIV/AIDS Administration): So, our goal is, by 2009, when you go to an emergency department, they should routinely offer you an HIV test. When you show up at your primary care doctor's office, you should get, just like you get the rest of the tests for your annual physical - you get your BMI for obesity, you get a blood pressure for hypertension, you get your blood sugar for diabetes - you should be getting your HIV status as well, without having to sort of beg for it or ask specifically. This has to be part and parcel about how we all approach our general health going forward.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: There have been celebrity campaigns that say things like, it's good know, know your status, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, but people are afraid. All of us have fears and some people may not want to know. What's the sense that you get of that?</s>Dr. SHANNON HADER (Director, D.C. HIV/AIDS Administration): Well, I think that that issue of stigma, fear, and silence is huge. And absolutely, that impacts people searching their test results, but it also impacts people taking preventive measures and taking care of measures to keep their health strong. I've been incredibly motivated by Mayor Fenty's leadership in saying, I'm making HIV/AIDS our number one health priority here in the district. And, in large part, a lot of that has to do with saying, come on, let's come together, let's break the stigma, break the fear, break the silence.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Who's really responsible for this - responsible may be the wrong word, but, I mean, Washington D.C. is a very interesting case of the overlap of the federal government and the local government. So, what responsibilities does it seem as if each has in dealing with this issue?</s>Dr. SHANNON HADER (Director, D.C. HIV/AIDS Administration): Well, you know what, we're all responsible and we have to use all the resources that are out there, whether they're district or federal, to get to the next level of our HIV response. Certainly, one of the specific relationship issues that's come out in D.C. has been this issue of Congress limiting our ability to spend our own district tax money on our own district programs and specifically, I'm talking about needle exchange programs.</s>Dr. SHANNON HADER (Director, D.C. HIV/AIDS Administration): Certainly, Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton has been working as well as Mayor Fenty has been working to convince Congress to remove that restriction on our funds, and I'm confident that that's going to happen this year. So, that's something that's specific to the district that other jurisdictions don't have to deal with.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: How much of needle exchange programs become more popular? They were extremely controversial when they were first proposed and first implemented.</s>Dr. SHANNON HADER (Director, D.C. HIV/AIDS Administration): Mm-hmm.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Is this now a fairly accepted form of a public health intervention?</s>Dr. SHANNON HADER (Director, D.C. HIV/AIDS Administration): Well, I think when it comes to comprehensive substance abuse, HIV prevention, we want a full toolkit available. Needle exchange is just one element in that full toolkit, and a lot of the wraparound services - including having on-demand treatment access for drug cessation, including having medical care available, including mental health services available, including having prevention information going out, those are all part of the toolkit. So, we don't want just one tool of the toolkit or just another tool in the toolkit, we want the whole thing at our disposal to really have a comprehensive program.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Dr. Hader. Thanks for the information.</s>Dr. SHANNON HADER (Director, D.C. HIV/AIDS Administration): Well, thank you for helping share that information. I think this really important and I hope a lot of your audience doesn't just listen, but takes the topic home, starts breaking that silence and stigma, and have some dinner-table conversations.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, thanks again. Dr. Shannon Hader, she's the director D.C. HIV/AIDS Administration.

When a family member is diagnosed with HIV/AIDS, it presents a host of unique challenges. Dorothy Holmes, a psychologist who counsels people infected with HIV/AIDS and their families, offers advice.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya and this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Before the break, we heard from a mother with AIDS. She has been getting great support from her family. But that is not always the case.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Dorothy Holmes is a psychologist in Miami. She has been working with people infected with HIV and their families for several years now.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Hello.</s>Dr. DOROTHY HOLMES (Psychologist; National President, Association of Black Psychologists): Hello. How are you doing today?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I am doing great. So, we just heard from Carla. She waited to tell her kids and family about her illness. So let's start off with disclosure. When is the right time to really reveal the illness to others if you have HIV or AIDS?</s>Dr. DOROTHY HOLMES (Psychologist; National President, Association of Black Psychologists): Well, disclosure is based on a needed-to-know, and that need to know starts with, of course, the individual's sexual partner. However, when it comes to disclosing some of your status to your children, there's no black and white answer or yes or no in terms of when to or when not to disclose. It depends on several factors, which include - some of these factors include the age of the child, child's emotional maturity, the child's intellectual and the child's intellectual functioning. And - but before disclosure takes place, my recommendation is that the infected person, of course, meets with a mental health professional who has experience in this particular field.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So when you, as a psychologist, deal with individuals who have a diagnosis of HIV or AIDS, what are some of the most common questions that come up in your sessions?</s>Dr. DOROTHY HOLMES (Psychologist; National President, Association of Black Psychologists): Disclosure is typically the first issue. Do I need to tell my children? Is, (unintelligible) the children or younger than 15 or 14, parents are probably concerned about their longevity in terms of whether they'll be, whether or not they will be available or be around to see their children grow up, finish high school, become functional adults themselves. So they really want to know when and how do I let my children know, or if I let - should I let my children know.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Do you ever see people who react in ways that are completely unhealthy? Drug abuse or recklessness or acting out with anger?</s>Dr. DOROTHY HOLMES (Psychologist; National President, Association of Black Psychologists): Yes, in terms of not disclosing their status to…</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, after they have had…</s>Dr. DOROTHY HOLMES (Psychologist; National President, Association of Black Psychologists): …the partner.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: After they've had a diagnosis.</s>Dr. DOROTHY HOLMES (Psychologist; National President, Association of Black Psychologists): After they've had a diagnosis, yes. Unfortunately, unfortunately, that is the case for some people. Because of their anger and rage, they do act out inappropriately and not disclose their status to a sexual partner.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now…</s>Dr. DOROTHY HOLMES (Psychologist; National President, Association of Black Psychologists): And that causes the incidents to - of HIV/AIDS to increase.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yeah. I was just going to ask you about that because we heard earlier in the show how rampant AIDS has become among African-Americans in the Washington, D.C. area particularly, but obviously, there are plenty of places where there's just a huge increase. And when you think about this idea of telling someone, there have been all these campaigns to ask people to open up. But do you think that's really working?</s>Dr. DOROTHY HOLMES (Psychologist; National President, Association of Black Psychologists): Well, again, the issue of social stigma, shame, guilt, lack of education and knowledge are some of the factors that prevent individuals from disclosing their status. One of the things that must be readdressed was the need for information and education and that's our first line of defense. Once we educate ourselves, then we're able to protect ourselves.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Carla Bailey has been living with AIDS for 13 years. There are people who've been living with AIDS for over two decades. But if, in fact, your loved one has AIDS and it's becoming a nearing of the end, what things should people think about as they face mortality?</s>Dr. DOROTHY HOLMES (Psychologist; National President, Association of Black Psychologists): Again, this is - some people are in that position where they have not disclosed to family and loved ones their status. And that would be fine(ph) to disclose to your loved ones. And so you can begin to mend and bring closure to relationships and to issues and work through whatever unresolved issues you may have lingering with a particular loved one or individual. So yes, that does that happen in people. Some people are able to work through these issues.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, thank you so much for your time.</s>Dr. DOROTHY HOLMES (Psychologist; National President, Association of Black Psychologists): Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Dorothy Holmes is president of the Association of Black Psychologists, and she's worked with HIV-infected clients and their families since 1995.

Republican presidential candidates faced off last night in a CNN/YouTube debate. For some analysis, Farai Chideya talks with James Taylor, an associate professor of political science at UCLA, and Mark Sawyer, an associate professor of politics at the University of San Francisco.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: From NPR News, this is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: The gloves came off at the GOP debate last night. The Iowa caucus and the New Hampshire primary are less than six weeks away; Rudy Giuliani and Mitt Romney squared off with personal attacks from the very start.</s>Mr. RUDY GIULIANI (Republican, New York): If you're going to take this holier-than-thou attitude, that your whole approach to immigration was so…</s>Mr. MITT ROMNEY (Republican, Massachusetts): I'm sorry, immigration is not holier than thou, Mayor. It's the law.</s>Mr. RUDY GIULIANI (Republican, New York): If you're going to take this holier than thou attitude that you are perfect on immigration…</s>Mr. MITT ROMNEY (Republican, Massachusetts): I'm not perfect.</s>Mr. RUDY GIULIANI (Republican, New York): … it just happens you have a special immigration problem that nobody else here has. You were employing illegal immigrants…</s>Mr. MITT ROMNEY (Republican, Massachusetts): You know, what…</s>Mr. RUDY GIULIANI (Republican, New York): That is a pretty serious thing. They were under your nose.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: CNN and YouTube co-hosted the event in St. Petersburg, Florida. The candidates took questions from the public submitted through the video-sharing Web site. Most of them were basic webcam stand-ups, but there were a few colorful productions. One included a man eating an ear of corn; another a cartoon of Vice President Dick Cheney holding a rifle.</s>Mr. NICK ANDERSON: Yeah. Will you grant your vice president as much power and influence as I've had, and remember before you answer, I'am watching you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So who got the upper hand? We've got two folks to help us find out. Political scientist Mark Sawyer - he's director of the Center for the Study of Race, Ethnicity and Politics at UCLA; and James Taylor - he's an associate professor of politics at the University of San Francisco. Welcome.</s>Mr. MARK SAWYER (Director, Center for the Study of Race, Ethnicity and Politics, University of California, Los Angeles): Hello, Farai.</s>Professor JAMES TAYLOR (Politics, University of San Francisco): Hello.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, I guess, James, I'll start with you. Was there a clear winner last night?</s>Professor JAMES TAYLOR (Politics, University of San Francisco): I wouldn't say there was a clear winner, but I thought Mike Huckabee did well on a number of questions he came across, I think, as an attractive candidate, as someone who is quick making populous appeals such as eliminating the IRS and the Department of Homeland Security. And he talked about, for example, eliminating the National Income Tax and coming up with a fair tax and, so I thought he did a good job in using his sense of humor, being quick on the question of what would Jesus do on the death penalty. But I thought that was somewhat of an evasion to the extent that he never answered the question about what Jesus would do on the death penalty.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It sounds like you saw some threads of populism in what he was saying.</s>Professor JAMES TAYLOR (Politics, University of San Francisco): Absolutely. I thought he, as well as Ron Paul, as well as those who talked about eliminating the various federal programs trying to make different sorts of a populist appeals, and Ron Paul clearly comes across best in that area.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And, Mark, immigration - it was just lit on fire last night. You had that exchange between Romney and Giuliani that set the tone for other exchanges. What was the top issue for you? Was it immigration? And if so, how did that play out?</s>Mr. MARK SAWYER (Director, Center for the Study of Race, Ethnicity and Politics, University of California, Los Angeles): Yeah. I mean, I would characterize the debate as gods, guns, gays and illegals with illegals leading the way and what really touched off was the idea that they really see immigration as an issue of sort of the criminality with - there being a really stark difference between the people who've been governors and mayors who've had to take a sort of practical view about the issue, understanding that the people are there. They need to have certain kinds of policies to sort of deal with their existence being in sharp contrast to those who haven't had to deal with that.</s>Mr. MARK SAWYER (Director, Center for the Study of Race, Ethnicity and Politics, University of California, Los Angeles): Of course, Romney attacked Giuliani on being a sort of sanctuary person and tried to sort of reposition himself on the issues as being sort of really tough on immigrants, a kind of Tancredo type. And that seems to be the sort of Romney playbook, which is sort of repositioned himself on a range of different issues quite differently than the way he addressed them in much more sort of practical terms as the governor of Massachusetts.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: James, there were a couple of questions that came from African-Americans last night. The first one dealt with black on black crime. Let's take a listen.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Unidentified Man #1: Hi. This is me and my son, Prentice(ph). We're from Atlanta.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Unidentified Man #2: I want to ask you guys a question. I noticed you spend billions of dollars on the war in Iraq every year, but what about the war going on in your own country, black on black crime? Two hundred to 400 black men die yearly in one city alone. What are you going to do about that war? It feels like the Taliban's right outside.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And here's Mitt Romney's response.</s>Mr. MITT ROMNEY (Republican, Massachusetts): About the war in the inner city? Number one is to get more moms and dads. That's number one. And thank heavens Bill Cosby said it like it was; that's where the root of crime starts.</s>Mr. MITT ROMNEY (Republican, Massachusetts): Number two, we've got to have better education in our schools. I think that the civil rights issue of our time is the failure of inner city schools to prepare kids in the inner city for the jobs of tomorrow.</s>Mr. MITT ROMNEY (Republican, Massachusetts): And number three, of course, you have to do a better job with our policing.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, James, is that an answer that you think really gave some substance? Who else put anything on the table during the discussion of that issue?</s>Professor JAMES TAYLOR (Politics, University of San Francisco): Yeah, I thought it was, again, somewhat of an evasion because in terms of, you know, talking about education and family structures, in addition to many other issues that these candidates neglected, no one really talked specifically about, you know, the fact that, you know, in America, 27,000 African-American young men have died over the past five years through gun violence and a hundred thousand have been wounded and maimed in America.</s>Professor JAMES TAYLOR (Politics, University of San Francisco): This is not Baghdad; this is not Abu, this is not, you know, the Sunni triangle. This is the United States of America, and we've had - African-American young men are actually safer in Baghdad at this point than they are in any of the major cities in the United States.</s>Professor JAMES TAYLOR (Politics, University of San Francisco): And so in addition to all of these issues that these candidates neglected, none of them talked about job creation. None of them talked about, you know, the trade and balance with China and other countries around the world that we have imbalances with that are germane of World Trade Organization, you know, agreements that definitely undermined the ability of semi-skilled sort of individuals to be able to find work in the United States.</s>Professor JAMES TAYLOR (Politics, University of San Francisco): And employment rates are extremely high. This came across - in the past presidential election I thought John Kerry did a good job in highlighting the point that African-American men in New York - the majority of them were unemployed where these kinds of issues are hardly being discussed today, but in city throughout city in America, with the exception, ironically, of Los Angeles right now, violences is on the uprise.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Mark, let me take you to another question from an African-American questioner. He basically just asks why don't black votes for Republicans, given their social conservatism. Let's listen to part of Giuliani's answer.</s>Mr. RUDY GIULIANI (Republican, New York): So there are many, many issues on which we can reach out. I found that one of the best was moving people off welfare. I moved 640,000 people off welfare, most of them to jobs. I changed the welfare agency into a job agency, and all of a sudden, I had people that had a future, people that had great hope in life.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: How solid do you think was that response and also given that now there are some questions about what is actually happening to some of the people who left the roles(ph)?</s>Mr. MARK SAWYER (Director, Center for the Study of Race, Ethnicity and Politics, University of California, Los Angeles): Yeah, it was a very weak response. I mean, the sort of Giuliani if you go on and listen to his argument was somewhat of African-Americans have a false consciousness. They're really Republicans; we just don't know it. And it seems to talk down and really not address the sort of issue, the historical issues that the Republican Party has had, which has been sort of running against using the image of African-Americans as a sort of scapegoat to whip up white voters.</s>Mr. MARK SAWYER (Director, Center for the Study of Race, Ethnicity and Politics, University of California, Los Angeles): You know, that began with a southern strategy and a range of other things. Giuliani was roundly hated by African-American voters - most of the people he'd moved off welfare, he moved in to poverty. And, you know, the issues were sort of - and another thing that they continued to address is, is that, African-Americans are addressed through the lens of crime.</s>Mr. MARK SAWYER (Director, Center for the Study of Race, Ethnicity and Politics, University of California, Los Angeles): And there are a lot of issues that face the community that are not related to crime, as James mentioned. The economy issues around trade; health care was not talked about at all. Those are things that are really core African-American issues and if, you know, for instance, if Romney thinks that education is a civil rights issue of our time, what is he going to do about it? There was no substance to the response.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: When you take a step back and look at how these guys are positioning themselves for the general election, there actually was a chance for them to do their own YouTube commercial and John McCain and Tom Tancredo showed themselves squaring off with Hillary Clinton. So they went for that aspect of it. Fred Thompson went for the jugular with the other candidates. Do you think that, at this point - first of all, there's a presumption that Hillary Clinton will be the person to beat. And secondly, that there should be a term from just attacking each other to moving into talking about the general election. James, how do you feel about that? Were they more focused on each other or more focused on the general election?</s>Professor JAMES TAYLOR (Politics, University of San Francisco): Yeah, I thought, you know, those who were like Tom - as you say, Tom Lancredo(ph) - Tancredo, he actually tried to sort of raise the specter of Hillary Clinton. But I think at this point, it seems almost staged that Giuliani and Romney started this whole debate last night as a kind of, you know, Mike Tyson's fight. You know, the first few minutes were furious and - on the issue of immigration, but, you know, eventually, they sort of, you know, moved away from each other and began to try to talk about Hillary Clinton, but she never really fully, I think, became the focus of the debate last night.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, Mark, it sounds like he is saying that basically, it was just mano a mano among the Republicans.</s>Mr. MARK SAWYER (Director, Center for the Study of Race, Ethnicity and Politics, University of California, Los Angeles): Yeah. Well, I mean, you can see that. I mean, it's a very tight race on their side. There's no - there's not really a sort of - I guess, Giuliani is the presumptive frontrunner. But it's not clear that he's going to win in Iowa, and someone could pick up a lot of momentum, so therefore, it was really set up. I mean, eventually, it was going to emerge as, at least, a little bit of the argument of who's best positioned to run against Hillary.</s>Mr. MARK SAWYER (Director, Center for the Study of Race, Ethnicity and Politics, University of California, Los Angeles): And - but it's - and, again, that may also be a mistake because it's not quite clear that Hillary may be the final opponent. If you look at what's going on in Iowa, if Obama picks up a win there and gains some momentum, things could shift and that sort of Republican argument that we're gearing up for Hillary may not become - come into fruition, actually.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: There's going to be a forum this weekend that deals with black and brown issues in the heartland. And, of course, the first two states - the first state, the Iowa caucus, is not very black or brown, but is that going to, James, be able to insert some issues into the consciousness even as we go towards the first couple of states that don't have a lot of people of color?</s>Professor JAMES TAYLOR (Politics, University of San Francisco): Yeah. I mean, I'm not quite sure, but it seems like, you know, in the Midwest, you have important states with large populations of African-Americans, especially, you know, for example, in Chicago, in Cleveland, in the city of, you know, Cincinnati, Dayton, these Midwest cities in Detroit. You know, these sort of issues that will be discussed in the Midwest certainly have a sort of captive audience of African-American and Latino and Chicano American people who would be interested in what sort of yield these discussions sort of produce.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well…</s>Professor JAMES TAYLOR (Politics, University of San Francisco): But there's a great deal of, you know, interest that African-Americans would have.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Mark and James, thanks so much.</s>Professor JAMES TAYLOR (Politics, University of San Francisco): Thank you.</s>Mr. MARK SAWYER (Director, Center for the Study of Race, Ethnicity and Politics, University of California, Los Angeles): Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We've been speaking with Mark Sawyer. He is the director of the Center for the Study of Race, Ethnicity and Politics at UCLA; also joined by the University of San Francisco, politics professor James Taylor. Both joined us from the U.C. Berkley School of Journalism studios.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And tune in Monday for our coverage of the Iowa brown and black presidential forum with the Democratic candidates.

We received a record number of letters about our interview with a Clinton supporter who now plans to vote for McCain. She can't be for real, many said. Also, listeners wrote in with their gas-related gloats.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: Here with us now, senior producer Steve Proffitt, to help share some of listener email.</s>STEVE PROFFITT: Madeleine, last week in our series "What's the New What?" a young woman, Alyssa Wagner, proposed that psychics are the new psychologists. She said her therapist was making her feel kind of crazy, but her psychic made her feel good. That didn't make a lot of our listeners feel good. A lot of them wrote in.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: That's right. And many were outraged that we would allow someone to compare trained and licensed psychologists to unregulated psychics.</s>STEVE PROFFITT: Others noted there are many types of therapists, and if one isn't right for you, just find another.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: He's a comment from Robert Freeman(ph) of Ellensburg, Washington. "Psychology is hard work. It's easier to have someone tell you what you want to hear."</s>STEVE PROFFITT: OK. Now to the number one topic in our inbox. Madeleine, your interview yesterday with Atlanta attorney and author Barbara LeBey.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: I don't think we've received this much mail ever. Anyway, Barbara LeBey told us she was a lifelong Democrat and Hillary Clinton supporter who is now leaning toward voting for John McCain.</s>STEVE PROFFITT: And she was critical of Barack Obama, calling him, among other things, a blank slate.</s>Ms. BARBARA LEBEY: I don't want our country led by another inexperienced upstart.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Scores, scores, scores of our listeners wrote to question whether Ms. LeBey was actually ever a Democrat, and some of you wondered if she was, in fact, a Republican operative.</s>Ms. SUSAN STURGILL: I'm Susan Sturgill (ph) from Columbus, Ohio. I really hope I'm only being paranoid, but it sounded to me like you were set up with an anti-Democratic campaign commercial.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Ms. LeBey is not a Republican plant. She is actually an aunt of one of our reporters, Laura Sydell.</s>STEVE PROFFITT: And although we got a couple of letters agreeing with her views, we got a lot more comments taking issue with her statements. Here's one from listener Randy Hall.</s>Mr. RANDY HALL: She cited John McCain's quote unquote "record of reaching across the aisle," but must have been unaware that John McCain voted with Bush 95 percent of the time in 2007, and 100 percent of the time so far in 2008. One would think a lifelong Democrat would take a few minutes to research something as important as one's vote for president. Randy Hall, Marblehead, Massachusetts.</s>PROFITT: Thanks to everyone who wrote in about that interview. And thanks to all of you who've written in with your tales of secret gloating in bad times.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: That's right. We asked you yesterday to share those moments when in spite of high gas prices, high food prices and dropping ome values, you've had a reason to gloat.</s>STEVE PROFFITT: We've gotten lots of great emails from Prius drivers, from bicyclists and this three-word summation from listener Mike Moore(ph).</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Fixed-rate mortgage.</s>STEVE PROFFITT: OK, that was great, but we're looking for more. Did you buy a bunch of oil company stock last year, maybe?</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Maybe you sold your home just before the market took a dive?</s>STEVE PROFFITT: Or are you so rich you'll never give up your enormous SUV, even if gas goes to 10 bucks a gallon?</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Write us with your gloats in 100 words or less.</s>STEVE PROFFITT: Just go to our Website, npr.org, and click on the contact us link.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Put "gloat" in the subject line. And Steve Proffitt? You'll be back to share us your gloats real soon. Steve, do you have a gloat for us today?</s>STEVE PROFFITT: I don't have any gloats. I'm not a gloater, OK? I'm just not a gloater. Madeleine, thank you very much.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: I don't believe you.</s>STEVE PROFFITT: Got to go now.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: OK, bye.</s>STEVE PROFFITT: Very busy.

A recent outbreak in salmonella linked to raw tomatoes has farmers across the country worried. Tom Deardorff, a fourth generation farmer in Oxnard, Calif., is scared that decreased demand will leave his tomatoes to rot in the field.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: This is Day to Day. I'm Madeleine Brand.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: And I'm Alex Cohen.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: Tomatoes grown in at least 20 states have been given a clean bill of health. That's to say they are not associated with the Salmonella outbreak, which has made more than 150 people sick. But even though tomatoes from top-producing states like California and Florida are considered safe, many consumers are feeling a bit squeamish about buying any. Tom Deardorff is a fourth-generation tomato farmer in Oxnard, California, and he's on the line with us now. Welcome to the program and tell us, how big of a year is this for you - for your crops?</s>Mr. TOM DEARDORFF (Deardorff Family Farms, Oxnard California): Well, we are setting up to have a very positive year based on what's happened over the last couple of years. Starting production in about two weeks and hoping for the best.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: Hoping for the best, but expecting what? How is the Salmonella outbreak going to affect you, do you think?</s>Mr. TOM DEARDORFF (Deardorff Family Farms, Oxnard California): Well, it's obviously substantially changed the marketplace in a very short period of time. What looked like was going to be a very positive season could end up being a disaster if certain buyers in both retail and food-service industry continue to not offer them on their menu items.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: And I have to say, you know, tomatoes don't necessarily have a great track record. There have been more than a dozen outbreaks of contamination with tomatoes since 1990. So how do you, as a farmer, go about convincing people it's OK to eat this stuff?</s>Mr. TOM DEARDORFF (Deardorff Family Farms, Oxnard California): Well, they actually have a very good track record in California and from a food-safety standpoint, we are the leading producers of the safest, best supply of tomatoes. So, it's a matter of educating the consuming public about where their tomatoes are coming from and about the measures that have been implemented in the last 10 to 15 years to help increase the food-safety elements of our products.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: Even though tomatoes here in California are considered safe, I'm wondering if you've taken any additional safety precautions with your crops.</s>Mr. TOM DEARDORFF (Deardorff Family Farms, Oxnard California): Yeah. Food safety is obviously an evolving thing, and we continue to implement new measures every year. This year, for example, we've substantially altered a lot of our packing shed in pursuit of better food- safety measures and more wash stations and more critical control-point analysis of the product as it moves through our packing shed.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: You know, I hear you talking about this, and I trust what you're saying is right. But I've got to say, you are not with me at the store when I look at the tomatoes, and I have to say, I've looked at them in the past couple of days and thought, I don't know. It feels just a little bit weird. So how do you go about convincing people when you can't be there for every, you know, individual potential buyer?</s>Mr. TOM DEARDORFF (Deardorff Family Farms, Oxnard California): And consumer confidence is a very finicky thing and we've seen with prior problems with food-safety issues, it's usually an initial huge reaction, and then it takes six to nine to sometimes 12 months to regain that consumer confidence. We are hoping that this time, because the domestic food supply has been cleared and has been recognized as not being a part of any of these warnings, that hopefully that recovery time is much quicker. We're going to need a lot of help from the government to help us get that message out. We are going to need a lot of help from our industry marketing associations. And then as individual companies, we need to get out there and educate the public about all the food-safety measures that we do here in our domestic food supply to ensure the safety of our products.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: Worse-case scenario, how much might you lose?</s>Mr. TOM DEARDORFF (Deardorff Family Farms, Oxnard California): Well, worst case is a really bad picture. California is the leading producer of tomatoes and if we have to start disking under fields, the ramifications are going to be into the hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars. So, it could be a very huge scenario if we can't regain consumer confidence here real quickly.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: California tomatoes have been cleared, but when you see them in the store, you don't necessarily know that they are from California and therefore, OK. So how do you get that message out?</s>Mr. TOM DEARDORFF (Deardorff Family Farms, Oxnard California): Well, interestingly, as of the end of September 2008, as a result of the current farm bill, we will have mandatory country-of-origin labeling at the retail level. So, retailers will be signing fresh fruits and vegetables here real soon so that the consuming public does know where their fresh fruit and vegetables are coming from.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: Tom Deardorff of Deardorff Family Farms in Oxnard, California. Thank you and good luck.</s>Mr. TOM DEARDORFF (Deardorff Family Farms, Oxnard California): Thank you very much.

Farai Chideya talks with Cincinnati Enquirer economics reporter Keith Reed about Black Friday retail sales and the recent break in mortgage rates. Plus, he explains why the NAACP is telling blacks not to shop at Target stores this holiday season.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: From NPR News, this is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: If you take a hard look at America's mortgage crisis, there seems to be some good news. Last week, mortgage rates dipped to a sixth-month low, but will that help Americans at risk of losing their homes? Will it even help the economy at large?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: For more, we've got Keith Reed, economics reporter for the Cincinnati Enquirer.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Keith, welcome.</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): How's it going?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It's going great. So the numbers, 30-year fixed-rate mortgages dropped a little bit. They were 6.24 percent last month. Now, to a six-month low of 6.20 percent. That doesn't sound like very much, so why is it making economists happy?</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): Oh, it's making economists happy because it does reflect a little bit of what they've said that we need to see to try to bring some of the housing market back. I mean, one of the things that - one of the major factors that conspired to due to the housing market what it's been doing, is the fact that the rates have gone up.</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): If you remember, much of what happened in the housing market over the last several years was due to the fact that we have rates that would have historical lows. And people began to buy homes and take out interest only or adjustable rate mortgages that were based on these very low rates. When those rates reset at higher levels, people - that's when you started to see people defaulting on their homes, and you started to see from the credit crunch some people in the mortgage market drying up. People weren't able to go out and borrow as much as they had been or they weren't able to borrow at all.</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): So when you start to see some loosening in that in terms of the rates readjusting downward, then economists are going to be a little bit happy about that.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: But, if you're at risk of losing your home, if you're trying to get refinancing, for example, will this save you?</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): No, it won't, it likely won't. I mean - the problem with someone who's in a mortgage right now who wants to refi out of it is that in many instances, they are trying to refi out of a mortgage on a house that's basically worth more than they can - than the house can be sold for - excuse me, worth less that house can be sold for.</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): For example, say you bought a house three years ago, and your interest - your adjustable rate mortgage had an initial rate that was set at, say, 4 percent for three years. Well, today, that mortgage would obviously - the rate would be much higher than that initial 4 percent. But then the other piece of it is, if the house was worth $150,000 three years ago, today it may only be worth, say, $120,000, or $110,000.</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): So when you got to refinance that house, you really have no equity in it at all, and that's the problem that people are facing when they want to refi out of these mortgages. So it's not something that's really helping people that already own their homes or are already in a mortgage and want to get out of one, just because it was a bad mortgage and they can no longer afford it. What it may do is help loosen up credit for some people who want to buy - who hadn't been able to in the last four to six months.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So it should help you if you're a new homeowner or seeking to be a new homeowner?</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): It could help you. I mean, provided you qualify, provided you meet all the qualifications to get a mortgage. And it's much more difficult to do that now than it was, say, a year ago. But if you do qualify, it makes a little bit easier for you, at least in terms of what you would pay on a monthly basis because the rates are lower than it had been in several months. And that's good news for people who were trying to buy now.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Of course, the mortgage crisis is having a huge impact on the economy at large. Another thing that always does is shopping, because we do live in a consumer society.</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): Uh-huh.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And so, the day after Thanksgiving is called Black Friday, not as in Afro-pick power to the people Black Friday, but it's the day that supposedly retailers go in the black or start turning a profit. With things being a little shaky economically nowadays, some retailers started holiday promotions after Halloween. So…</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): Mm-hmm.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: …how did they do this Friday?</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): They did better than expected, but there are still some worries out there. You saw sales, particularly online sales go up this year compared with last year, according to the initial data that came in. Still we're up 8.3 percent on Black Friday compared with last year, but that is with fewer customers coming into the stores.</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): The only thing that you have to worry about is not just what happens on Black Friday because people have this idea that Black Friday is the day that it all happens. Black Friday is really the day that it kicks off. So the holiday shopping season traditionally starts on Black Friday, but it doesn't necessarily mean that that's when retailers make all their money. That is the day that it kicks off the holiday shopping season, and it needs sales to continue to be strong, at least for the next several weeks leading into Christmas shopping season.</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): What happened this year, as you saw, pretty strong sales, stronger than expected sales on Black Friday because you had so many door-buster sales. Retailers were so worried about how dismal they thought it was going to be that they put everything on sale, and a lot of people came out, and they bought a lot of stuff, and they got better deals than they expected to get.</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): But Saturday, it trailed off. And, you know, so they're worried about whether or not it's going to continue to be strong, given they started so early, right after Halloween, and they had so many sales on Black Friday, whether or not they can maintain the pace that they need to see a truly good holiday shopping season at this point.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: New economics experts talked about something called shopper's trading down. What does that mean?</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): That means essentially that what's happening this year is that many shoppers are going to buy things that are essentially cheaper. They're looking for the low price point; they're looking for items that aren't necessarily as expensive. This is different from another phenomenon that involved shoppers, sort of mixing and matching what they do.</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): For example, you may go to Target and buy house wares at a relatively inexpensive price, but then you and buy coats and bags that cost $300 or $400 at a Macy's or some other department store. Well, this year, the $400 handbag seems to be - is out, and people are looking for that mid-price point. A video game as opposed to a video game system; a DVD player as opposed to the big screen TV that everybody was buying last year. So with shoppers buying the less expensive items and everything being at a discounted rate, you can see some of the position that the retailers are finding themselves in.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Are retailers and shoppers essentially in opposition to each other, if not at war with each other? What I mean by that is, so many people are carrying big credit-card debt, and so you might think, okay, don't spend too much money. But then, retail helps drive the American economy. What are the different things that are - or what are the forces that are at play here?</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): I don't think the retailers are at war with the consumer. It's not as if consumers are out there, you know, protesting or demanding that retailers lower their prices, you've just got some external forces out there. People in the United States, American consumers are just that, they are consumers. They want to buy things that makes us feel good. It's a reflection to a certain extent of your wealth or at least how wealthy you feel.</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): But right now, people just don't feel as wealthy as they have over the last several years. You've got a situation where, you know, oil is very expensive, newer record, around $97 a barrel, which is just about a dollar or so off from a record for crude oil. That affects, obviously, what you pay to heat your home, and we are entering winter, although it doesn't feel like that in many parts of the country yet.</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): It's going to affect the - your travel plans' going to affect how much you pay for an airline ticket to go home and see your family, or how much it takes to fill up your car to go to and from work. The housing economy, obviously, as we just discussed, is often has been for the better part of the year, people's houses are worth less, people can't go in and refinance their houses or can't borrow because the value of the house or due to Christmas that they have been over the last several years. You got…</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So people…</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): …you got the confluence or factors that are putting pressure on the retail environment. It's not that people don't want to buy or that they're ignoring what the retailers are doing. It's just that people are in a position that they haven't been in for the last several years.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Keith, let's take a quick look at something else affecting retail. It's a question of affinity buying. Do you, basically, vote your social conscience with your dollar? So there's a specific case every year since'96, the NAACP has put out a report on corporate retailers in black communities. Target, for the past three years, has not participated in the survey. The NAACP is bringing this up pointedly. Now, there's so much focus on stores that market themselves as good for the environment or green. Do people even look at what's good for diversity when they buy?</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): I think some people do. Although I don't really know that there's any evidence that that it's enough to move the needle, and I have to admit that I haven't seen data on this. But I do think that, you know, there's always going to be some segment of the population that will be influenced in their buying decisions by - based on certain social or political concerns and that will cut across the gamut you will always have, X percentage of the population whose going to be very concerned with the environment? X percent of the population who is going to be very concerned with animal rights. X percent of the population is going to be - excuse me - very concerned with racial or community factors. And that percentage in the population, I think is relatively small. What the challenge is for the NAACP in the report that you talked about in their effort to galvanize something that will boycott will be to agitate beyond that base of consumers that's already buying with those concerns in mind and…</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Keith, let me just…</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): …well, it remainsto be seen. Go ahead.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Bring up one thing. There's a blog called "Black is Back," and the blogger who runs that made a point of saying online that when he was running a teen, parent and adult education program, Target with the only business that donated things consistently. If Target does have that kind of a track record - at least according to one person - very briefly, why would they avoid participating in this kind of a survey?</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): It's hard to tell. That could be an indicator of any number of things. Target may have some issue with the criteria that the NAACP uses to come to its report card in which case it would - it might refuse to participate in the survey. Target - it's not necessarily something that smacks as something sinister or it doesn't necessarily indicate that they're not doing some of the things like giving back to communities based on race or based on any other concern. It could simply be that they disagree with whatever the criteria is that the NAACP uses. We don't know because target hasn't said why they don't participate in. So until they do open up and say we're not participating because of X or because of Y, it would be very difficult to make a determination about whether, you know, what the NAACP reports is really accurate and reflective…</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Keith…</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): …(unintelligible)…</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: …Keith, thank you so much.</s>Mr. KEITH REED (Economics Reporter, Cincinnati Enquirer): Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Keith Reed is an economics reporter for the Cincinnati Enquirer.

The Southern Baptist Convention has been meeting this week in Indianapolis. The group is grappling with declining membership and the feeling that they don't have a candidate in this year's presidential race.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: Southern Baptists have been a key voting bloc in recent presidential elections, so who are they going for this year? The Southern Baptist Convention wraps up its annual meeting today in Indianapolis. NPR's Celeste Headlee was there.</s>CELESTE HEADLEE: The consensus among voters at the Southern Baptist Convention is that there is no consensus.</s>Mr. TOM PATTERSON (Southern Baptist): It just don't seem like there's a candidate that anybody's excited about.</s>Ms. SARAH BURKE (Southern Baptist): I can't see that Southern Baptists are going to come out very strongly for one individual.</s>Mr. MARCUS READING (Southern Baptist): I get an odd sense with the SBC, it's almost like a quietness that I've not heard the excitement about the election on either side.</s>CELESTE HEADLEE: Tom Patterson(ph), Sarah Burke(ph) and Marcus Reading(ph) are all chatting in the crowded hallways of the Indiana Convention Center. Loren Hutchinson(ph) of Kansas City doesn't think the Southern Baptist Convention will be as involved in presidential politics this year as it has been in the past.</s>Mr. LOREN HUTCHINSON: I hope not. I think it's to our detriment. I think it's sidetracked us from our purpose on Earth. I think it's watered down the message of the Gospel.</s>CELESTE HEADLEE: Why are the Southern Baptists so unenthused about the presidential race? Well, some, like Mike Butler (ph), just haven't made up their minds.</s>Mr. MIKE BUTLER: It's very much a up-in-the-air thing right now, between Obama and McCain, for me.</s>CELESTE HEADLEE: Yes, you heard right. A longtime member of the Southern Baptist Convention is struggling to choose between Barack Obama and John McCain in the presidential race - not exactly what you might expect from this conservative religious group. And Butler is not the only one.</s>Ms. BEV OLONNO: Obama has an understanding of some things that we have totally missed. He is in touch with the whole racial issues that we can't just - like say, OK, that's going to happen by itself.</s>CELESTE HEADLEE: Bev Olonno(ph) says there are things she likes about both candidates. That's probably the last thing the McCain campaign wants to hear. McCain recently appointed a national coordinator for evangelical and social conservative outreach. The Arizona senator also often points to his strong anti-abortion voting record. But Doug Munton(ph) doesn't think Baptists are one-issue voters.</s>DOUG MUNTON: A lot of Southern Baptists are very glad to see a pro-life candidate, but there's a lot of issues involved in choosing a president, and that's just one of them.</s>CELESTE HEADLEE: SBC members were passionate supporters of George Bush in 2000, and they're credited with helping him earn his second term. But Lee Pig (ph) says McCain just doesn't inspire the same enthusiasm.</s>Mr. LEE PIG: I guess he's just not as charismatic, maybe, as Obama. Even though I'm not going to vote for Obama, but I don't feel a connection to McCain like I did Bush.</s>CELESTE HEADLEE: That lack of a connection may be caused by doubt over McCain's religious credentials. Tom Patterson is from Rockville, South Carolina.</s>Mr. TOM PATTERSON (Southern Baptist): Well he says he's Baptist, but I don't know which church he's a member of.</s>CELESTE HEADLEE: McCain has had a rocky relationship with evangelicals. In 2000, he denounced Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell as quote, "agents of intolerance." The senator actively sought endorsements from influential pastors John Hagee and Rod Parsley. But last month, McCain renounced those endorsements after some controversial statements came to light. Bev Ollono says Southern Baptists are not automatically going to support the Republican nominee come November.</s>Ms. BEV OLONNO: God is not Democrat or Republican. To me, it's like humbling ourselves before God and Lord, who do you want?</s>CELESTE HEADLEE: It's probably safe to say McCain has yet to win over the millions of Southern Baptists voters that helped George Bush get to the White House and stay there. Celeste Headlee, NPR News, Indianapolis.</s>COHEN: Your angry, angry letters, when Day to Day continues.

The "sea rocket" shows preferential treatment to plants that are its kin. Evolutionary plant ecologist Susan Dudley of McMaster University in Ontario discusses her discovery.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: This is Day to Day. I'm Madeleine Brand.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: And I'm Alex Cohen.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: Coming up, the question of who wrote a famous religious poem turns into a very unchristian battle.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: First, remember the 1970s? People talked to their houseplants, played them classical music. They were convinced plants were sensuous beings and there was that 1979 movie, "The Secret Life of Plants."</s>Unidentified Male: Only a few daring individuals, from the scientific establishment, have come forward with offers to replicate his experiments, or test his results. The great majority are content simply to condemn his efforts without taking the trouble to investigate their validity.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Well, some thirty years later, things may have changed. Scientists now report that a weed known as the Sea Rocket makes animal-like decisions. Susan Dudley carried out the study. She's an Evolutionary Plant Ecologist at McMaster University in Ontario, Canada and what did you discover that the Sea Rocket was doing?</s>Professor SUSAN DUDLEY (Biology, McMaster University): Well, what I discovered is that the plants made a different shape. They changed how much they put into roots when they were grown with strangers sharing the same pot, but not when they were growing with their siblings. So, their whole, how they grow - their morphology - depends on who they are growing with and basically it shows that they can recognize their kin. And we think that this is an indication that they are competing less with their kin.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: They can recognize their relatives?</s>Professor SUSAN DUDLEY (Biology, McMaster University): Or maybe recognize strangers, we don't know?</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Well, this must have been pretty astonishing?</s>Professor SUSAN DUDLEY (Biology, McMaster University): It was astonishing. I mean it was - there's a lot of good scientific reasons to look for it, but it is always astonishing when you think something is happening, and it turns out - or you look for it and it turns out that it actually is there.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Well, plants don't have a brain. They don't have eyes. They don't have a sense of smell, I don't think? So how are they able to do this?</s>Professor SUSAN DUDLEY (Biology, McMaster University): Well plants have a lot of ways of sensing the environment. They sense all sorts of things about the environment. And they while they don't have eyes, for example, they have photo receptors which let them sense things about the color of the light. And that is actually a really well-known way the plants can sense whether or not there are other plants around them. We think that this is probably a chemical cue. Some research I'm doing in collaboration with someone at the University of Delaware, Harsh Bais, shows that there's something - they put something in the liquid surrounding the roots that illicits this stranger response.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: And what good does it do the plant? Does it make it better able to live? To succeed?</s>Professor SUSAN DUDLEY (Biology, McMaster University): Well, what we think is that - you know, our hypothesis, working hypothesis, is that competition is costly for plants and that if that they can agree not to compete, they will all do better. But the only ones that they can basically agree with would be their relatives. So, it's a kind of...</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: It sounds familiar.</s>Professor SUSAN DUDLEY (Biology, McMaster University): Yeah, no, that's why it's not sensitive new age guy kind of plants, but you know, plants that are out to get what they can. And in fact, this kind of agreement not to compete goes away when resources are scarce. You know, we had one study where we are writing up, that shows when resources are scarce, they'll compete as strongly with relatives as they will with anyone else.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So, they are not actually thinking, they are just reacting to chemical inputs?</s>Professor SUSAN DUDLEY (Biology, McMaster University): Yeah, I don't - I don't feel any more guilt about eating salads then I ever did. I definitely don't think that they are conscious, but I think that they are sensing things about the environment and responding to those things and perhaps even taking multiple cues from the environment into account as they respond. So the presence of competitors, the nutrients, whether those competitors are kin or strangers.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So, this was the humble Sea Rocket, which is basically a weed. Do you think that other plants do the same thing and maybe plants that are a little fancier? Or more advanced than the weed could actually do more things?</s>Professor SUSAN DUDLEY (Biology, McMaster University): Well, we've done this in a few other plants and what we are finding is that in three other plants that we looked for it, we did find it. Mind you we've looked in species where we thought we would find it. Species that are kind of weedy, that grow with their relatives very often, that are, you know, sort of set up where you would expect an evolutionary biologist to find that you grow with relatives and favoring relatives so therefore it'd be to the plants advantage.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Susan Dudley, thank you very much.</s>Professor SUSAN DUDLEY (Biology, McMaster University): OK. Thank you.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: That's Susan Dudley. She's an associate professor of biology at McMaster University in Hamilton Ontario. She discovered that there is a social life of plants.

The new iPhone has sent hearts a-flutter with its improved software, design and colors — all the characteristics that appeal to women, according to Genevieve Bell, an anthropologist for Intel and its Director of User Experience..

MADELEINE BRAND, host: This is Day to Day, I'm Madeleine Brand.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: I'm Alex Cohen. Madeleine, you were just asking me if you should get the new iPhone.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: I was, just before this show, just wondering, well it's new, it's cheaper, maybe...</s>ALEX COHEN, host: It's pretty swell. Now you've got the BlackBerry, right?</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Yeah, I have a BlackBerry.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: But you're not totally in love with it, baby?</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Well, I think we have a platonic relationship.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: Well, you know it is tough figuring out how to design technology that will make us gals whip out our wallets.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: And this week you've been doing a series on this. And today you've been looking at the differences in gender when it comes to gadgets.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: Genevieve Bell is a cultural anthropologist for Intel. She spent a lot of time going into homes and observing how people use technology. Genevieve joins us now. Welcome to the program.</s>Dr. GENEVIEVE BELL (Anthropologist, Intel, Director of User Experience): Hi, it's good to be here.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: So, does gender really make a difference when it comes to technology?</s>Dr. GENEVIEVE BELL (Anthropologist, Intel, Director of User Experience): Of course it does. Gender, as we know, impacts all kinds of things. To understand how men and women use technology differently, I think you have to kind of back it up a little bit and think about how men and women have different, in some ways, lives and demands on their time. If you look at the data from the U.S. Department of Labor, if you look at the data from the United Nations, one of the things that's really striking is the ways in which the demands on women's time haven't in fact changed in nearly 50 years. We spend as much time now doing housework, child rearing and emotional work with those around us as we did 50 years ago. And add on to that our presence and paid labor, what you get is women who are really in some ways time constrained. And I think that drives a lot of our demands about technology.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: A lot of these gadgets that you see out there geared towards women are pink or covered in jewels or fluffy in some regard. Does any of this actually matter to us as consumers?</s>Dr. GENEVIEVE BELL (Anthropologist, Intel, Director of User Experience): I've heard that jokingly referred to as that to sell technology to women you have to shrink it and pink it.</s>Dr. GENEVIEVE BELL (Anthropologist, Intel, Director of User Experience): Which is terrible. I think in some ways those attempts are heading in the right direction but they're profoundly misguided. Women and I'd argue many men, know that how they look, how they conduct themselves, how they dress, how they're augmented impacts how people make sense of them. And it's part and parcel of how people know how to reach you in the world. And technologies have become part of that ensemble, if you will. I mean, they've become part of how we're made sense of, they're part of our identities. Particularly small mobile devices. Mobile phones, cameras, mp3 players, there's a whole constellation of technologies that we carry with us now, that have become ways by which people make sense of us.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: What's been the biggest surprise to you in all this research that you've done?</s>Dr. GENEVIEVE BELL (Anthropologist, Intel, Director of User Experience): I shall think the biggest surprise to me came about three and a half years ago when we were doing some work on early adopters of Wi-Fi technology and wireless technology. And we discovered that women were in fact the early adopters. It wasn't men at all. And it was one of the first times I remember looking across the data of technology adoption statistics and technology use statistics where women were in fact leading men.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: And when you're talking about wireless, you're meaning the ability to access the Internet from a number of locations, right?</s>Dr. GENEVIEVE BELL (Anthropologist, Intel, Director of User Experience): Absolutely.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: And why would women be more likely to do that?</s>Dr. GENEVIEVE BELL (Anthropologist, Intel, Director of User Experience): Well, the data we had suggested that it was about the fact that it meant that you can fit the Internet into a life where you are having to juggle a lot of competing demands. Leading back to what I said about women being really time-constrained. What wireless Internet access let women do was do the family's banking while taking kids to the dentist, you know, be at a kid's football game and still be able to take care of shopping. It let people do family communications while also spending time with their kids. And it really kind of fit into a life where there's a lot of multi-tasking happening. And I think for some of those reasons women were adopting that technology.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: Genevieve Bell is an anthropologist and she's the Director of the User Experience Group at Intel. Thanks so much, Genevieve.</s>Dr. GENEVIEVE BELL (Anthropologist, Intel, Director of User Experience): Oh, thank you.

Mark Jordan Legan of Slate.com shares what the critics are saying about the new Adam Sandler comedy You Don't Mess with the Zohan, the John C. Reilly office farce The Promotion and the animated film Kung Fu Panda.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: Baby! Lots of movies out this weekend that aimed to make you smile, "You Don't Mess with the Zohan," "Kung Fu Panda."</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: So, Mark Jordan Legan is here to tell you what the critics think of the new movies. It's our weekly feature from slate.com, Summary Judgment.</s>MARK JORDAN LEGAN: It wouldn't be summer without a zany comedy from popular comic actor, Adam Sandler, and I'm sure many of you have seen the billboards for "You Don't Mess with the Zohan." This timeout, he portrays a top Israeli commando who fakes his own death to pursue his dream, becoming a hairstylist in the Big Apple. Wow! It's sort of like "Shampoo" meets "Munich," I guess?</s>Unidentified Child: I don't want a haircut!</s>Mr. ADAM SANDLER: (As Zohan) Young man, you know, you shouldn't jump around when this nice woman holding a sharp pair of scissors. If you move, she could slit and slice your jugular, man, on accident. All of your blood will be on the floor in four minutes. I've seen this, I've done this. You don't want this.</s>MARK JORDAN LEGAN: Many of the critics felt like crying as well. But then again, Sandler's movie seemed to be critic-proof. The Onion sighs, "spectacularly unimpeachably, relentlessly, preposterous." Variety warns, "It would require a talent of Peter Sellers' magnitude to conquer this material and he is not around." But the Austin Chronicle called Zohan, "a crazed, delightfully, bizarre return to form for Sandler." Writer Steve Conrad, who penned the dark Nicholas Cage dramedy, "The Weatherman," and Will Smith's uplifting "The Pursuit of Happyness," now makes his directorial debut with "The Promotion," A supermarket comedy where two assistant managers battle to get the coveted managerial post at a new location. John C. Reilly and Seann William Scott square off.</s>MARK JORDAN LEGAN: Mr. JOHN C. REILLY: (As Richard) I think with just some black apples, no, we won't be seeing that happen again.</s>Mr. SEANN WILLIAM SCOTT: (As Doug) You said black apples?</s>Mr. REILLY: (As Richard) I said bad ones.</s>Mr. SEANN WILLIAM SCOTT: (As Doug) You said black.</s>Mr. REILLY: (As Richard) I'm sorry if there's some confusion. Maybe in the confusion, I...</s>Mr. SEANN WILLIAM SCOTT: (As Doug) Hey, come on. It's been a long day. That was a slipped.</s>Mr. REILLY: (As Richard) And I didn't mean to say black, I meant back, blatch, blah, blapples.</s>MARK JORDAN LEGAN: The Nations critics are split on "The Promotion." The New York observer raves, "darkly funny." The LA Weekly chuckles, "low key, witty and observant." But if you want to talk about clean up in aisle three, the Hollywood Reporter hated it, snarling, "one of the unfunniest comedies ever."</s>MARK JORDAN LEGAN: And hey, leave the gummy bears at home and bring plenty of bamboo because opening in wide release, says the Dreamworks animated comedy, "Kung Fu Panda." Jack Black provides the voice for Po, a clumsy Panda who dreams of becoming a Kung Fu master. Everyone from Angelina Jolie to Dustin Hoffman also lend their vocal talent.</s>Mr. DUSTIN HOFFMAN: (As Shifu) Hit it!</s>Mr. JACK BLACK: (As Po) OK. Yeah. I mean, I just ate. So, I'm still digesting. So my Kung Fu might not be as good as later on.</s>Mr. DUSTIN HOFFMAN: (As Shifu) Just hit it!</s>Mr. JACK BLACK: (As Po) OK. How's that? Oww!</s>MARK JORDAN LEGAN: The nation's critics get a kick out of "Kung Fu Panda." "Infectious and inspiring," shouts the Washington Post, and Entertainment Weekly cheers, "light and goofy, lickety-split, mad fun." You know, I'm glad this film is showing their violent side because pandas are always presented as these cute, dazzling animals, but they really are the most vicious blood-thirsty, man-eating creatures in the world. Oh! Come on. How did an enraged giant panda get into the studio?</s>MARK JORDAN LEGAN: Ah! He's going for my double chin, the sweetest of all human meat. Ahhh!</s>Mr. CARL DOUGLAS: (Singing) Everybody was Kung fu fighting. Those cats were fast as lightning...</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Mark Jordan Legan is a writer and animal expert living in Los Angeles. Coming up, one of the writers of "You Don't Mess with the Zohan," Robert Smigel, and his alter ego, Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog. That's coming up.

China's devastating earthquake in May left almost 70,000 dead and five million homeless. Thousands of the displaced people are now being evacuated again as rivers clogged with debris threaten to overflow. One such camp is on Peach Blossom Mountain near Jiangyou.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: I'm Madeleine Brand. Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao is in Sichuan province today. He's inspecting the so called quake lake, that's a lake formed by landslides after last month's 7.9 earthquake.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Authorities have evacuated one quarter of a million people in the flood path of that lake. For some it's their second flight to safety, and still many are anxious to get back home. Jamila Trindle reports.</s>JAMILA TRINDLE: Tua Hua Shan or Peach Blossom Mountain is really just a hill, but it's become a refuge for thousands of people from low lying villages nearby. If the dammed river upstream gives way and floods the valley, it should still be above water. For people staying here, it's been three weeks of fear and uncertainty. After living through one disaster and fleeing the threat of another.</s>Mr. WEN FONG: (Through translator) Everyone wants peace and quiet, but the quake and the flood makes everyone here nervous. If the situation continues like this, our hearts won't be able to take it anymore. It's so terrible.</s>JAMILA TRINDLE: Wen Fong (ph) says he has nightmares about the quake, the aftershocks, and now the flood, too. A local TV station has wired up a television. A few people are gathered around waiting for news about the lake that still threatens to flood their towns. Others have retreated into the woods nearby to get out of the heat. At first glance, with parents playing cards and kids running through the trees, it looks like everyone's just out here for a day in the country. Though it all appears carefree, when I asked the kids what they've been doing these days, they're quick to answer avoiding disaster. The adults are laughing and chattering around their card game, maybe out of nervousness. They say they're constantly anxious. Wong Guen Quay(ph) says she's still scared, even here.</s>Ms. WONG GUEN QUAY (Earthquake Survivor): (Through translator) I worry about a bigger earthquake or flood coming. Maybe this place where we're staying will also be destroyed. After the quake, you know, my legs are always soft. It's like I'm swaying in the wind when I walk. All day my brain is nervous and my heart feels like it's going to stop.</s>JAMILA TRINDLE: When she heard they'd have to evacuate again, Wong couldn't believe it.</s>Ms. WONG GUEN QUAY (Earthquake Survivor): (Through translator) It's crazy. The quake isn't finished, but the flood is coming.</s>JAMILA TRINDLE: And yet they all say they'll go back.</s>Ms. WONG GUEN QUAY (Earthquake Survivor): (Through translator) How could we leave? Even the migrant workers who left are coming back. It's our home. Of course if flooding destroys the houses, we'll have to leave. If not, we prefer to stay there.</s>JAMILA TRINDLE: Wong says life will be hard, even if they can go back. They'll still have to live in tents. But they're hoping they can harvest the crops left in the fields when they fled. That's one of their biggest concerns right now. For some of them, it's all they have. And they all agree they're grateful the government is providing for them until it's safe to return. Jo Gui Ti(ph) is hoping that it's soon. He's an official for a nearby village. Jo sits tallying numbers in front of a blue tent labeled Tai Bai(ph) Village Office.</s>Mr. JO GUI TI (Tai Bai Village Official): (Through translator) People are definitely more anxious here. Not only the farmers, but also the officials are quite anxious. We really hope that the people can return to their homes as soon as possible. You know, inside the tent it's too hot so it's hard to do anything in there.</s>JAMILA TRINDLE: He says his village was one of the first to be evacuated, so they've been here for ten days and the financial loss in terms of crops keeps mounting. As the women around her voice their anxieties, Wong Guen Cheun(ph) tries to put things in perspective.</s>Ms. WONG GUEN CHUEN (Earthquake Survivor): (Through translator) Of course we're very anxious about staying here too long. Our crops are still in the fields and we can't harvest them. But most importantly we're safe. That's the point. Life is the most important.</s>JAMILA TRINDLE: For NPR news, I'm Jamila Trindle in Sichuan province.

The global credit crunch will last another two to four years according to Bob Doll, the CIO of U.S. investment management firm Black Rock. John Dimsdale breaks down what this means for consumer, auto and credit card loans.

ALEX COHEN: From NPR News this is Day to Day. And today is another day, a brighter day on Wall Street. Friday was not pretty. The DOW plunged nearly 400 points, oil prices increased. Well, today both trends reversed slightly. Nobody, though, thinks the economy's problems are over. In fact, an analyst with the global investment firm Black Rock predicted today that the credit crunch could be with us for at least another two years. John Dimsdale is here now from Marketplace. John, at least another two years? That means more, possibly?</s>JOHN DIMSDALE: Yes, yes. It's particularly gloomy. This was a prediction made today by Bob Doll he's the vice chairman and the manager of funds for Black Rock. And they're in the business of offering institutional and retail investors forecasts of future economic performance. He was on a trip to Singapore and told reporters that banks still have several years worth of problems with bad mortgages. Foreclosures, he says, will continue to create losses and they'll in turn, make banks skittish about making new loans and that is going to slow down other ways of borrowing, consumer loans, auto loans, even credit card loans for another two to four years.</s>ALEX COHEN: So, what does this mean for us? For consumers?</s>JOHN DIMSDALE: Well, it means a higher cost of borrowing and it will make it tougher for American shoppers to keep spending the way they have. And you know, they've really been the pillar of strength, keeping the U.S. economy going since the technology bust around the turn of the century. I checked in Steven Moore, an editorial writer for the Wall Street Journal. He's not quite as pessimistic as Bob Doll, but Moore does worry that the borrowing crunch is going to create more problems.</s>Mr. STEVEN MOORE (Editorial Writer, Wall Street Journal): Americans are now starting to pull back a little bit on their consumption because they are feeling like the amount of money that they have in the bank is starting to shrink and the danger is that if the crises gets worse, then you could see a real pull back in consumer spending and that would lead to a much more negative situation than we are facing at the very moment.</s>ALEX COHEN: And John- by John - I'm sorry, John, by negative, he means what exactly? This recession that we keep hearing about?</s>JOHN DIMSDALE: Well, yeah, I think most do expect that the economy is going to stall for at least two quarters some time this year, which would make a recession. But you'd - and you'd think this Black Rock analyst would agree with that, but oddly enough, he doesn't. Even though there is a fair amount of doom in his forecast, he's calling this a correction, not necessarily a recession. He thinks the Federal Reserve's actions of flooding the financial system with cheap government loans is going to head off any more bank failures like Bear Stearns. So, he says there'll definitely be a slowdown, but he calls a recession unlikely. However, he does say that if commodities, not -doesn't mean only oil, but things like copper and aluminum, continue to be scarce and expensive, in his words "all bets are off."</s>ALEX COHEN: Thank you John. That's John Dimsdale of Public Radio's daily business show, Marketplace.

With the national average price of a gallon reaching four dollars, we visit Detroit-area gas stations to hear how motorists are coping.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: From the studios of NPR West, this is Day to Day, I'm Madeleine Brand.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: And I'm Alex Cohen in for Alex Chadwick. Coming up, gadgets for gals, consumer electronics companies are gearing more of their products to women.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: First though, we could be in the worst energy crisis in a generation. Here's one marker - the average cost of gas hit four dollars a gallon this weekend. Celeste Headlee reports from Detroit on the reaction from drivers as they begin their workweek.</s>HEADLEE: It feels like summer at this gas station in Detroit. The temperature is expected to reach 90 degrees. But that's not what has Robert Huff (ph) steamed up. He's furious about paying 3.99 for a gallon of gas.</s>Mr. ROBERT HUFF (Gasoline Consumer, Detroit, Michigan): No, it ain't fair. They'e robbing us, they just ain't got the gun out at us. You know and they're taking all our money with all of this.</s>Ms. KELLY RATZIG (Gasoline Consumer, Detroit, Michigan): No, I think we're being overcharged. It's a dollar more than it was a year ago. What's changed so much that we're paying a dollar more?</s>HEADLEE: That's Kelly Ratzig (ph). She's an organic gardener by trade and has to drive all over the state hauling fertilizer and tools.</s>Ms. KELLY RATZIG (Gasoline Consumer, Detroit, Michigan): Spending on average, seriously, of 150 dollars a week in gas is expensive. And it definitely tells us we're not going to do any big vacationing this summer either.</s>HEADLEE: Gas prices reached an all-time high this weekend after a jump of almost 11 dollars a barrel on Friday. And economists say the average person is paying a much higher percentage of their income on fuel. Andre Easson (ph) says that he's not sure he can afford any further increases.</s>Mr. ANDRE EASSON (Gas Consumer, Detroit, Michigan): No, I don't it's fair because they're not raising the prices of minimum wages for our jobs, seem like they could raise the prices of the jobs and maybe we could deal with it. But this is rough.</s>HEADLEE: Everyone we spoke to says gas prices are affecting their day-to-day spending decisions. Kelly Ratzig says she thinks twice before driving across town to see friends.</s>Ms. KELLY RATZIG (Gasoline Consumer, Detroit, Michigan): My sister wants to go to dinner and she factors in whether or not it is realistic for the price of gas.</s>HEADLEE: And Robert Huff says he's had to set aside a larger chunk of money to fill his gas tank. And the money has to come from somewhere.</s>Mr. ROBERT HUFF (Gasoline Consumer, Detroit, Michigan): Yeah, I have to go buy cheaper food. I used to shop at Kroger's now I have to shop at Alden's (ph). You know, the prices are cheaper.</s>HEADLEE: Huff says he believes the government could do something about gas prices and taxpayers need relief.</s>Mr. ROBERT HUFF (Gasoline Consumer, Detroit, Michigan): It's hard to survive. You know, forget making it, it's hard to survive.</s>HEADLEE: There are some predicting the price of a barrel of oil will hit 150 dollars by the 4th of July weekend and it's a sure bet that Americans like Robert Huff will be looking to the presidential candidates for answers and will expect a solution from the next administration. Celeste Headley, NPR News, Detroit.

Sen. Barack Obama told the American Israel Public Affairs Committee on Wednesday that he is a "true friend" of Israel. At the same event, his rival, Hillary Clinton, did not concede her role as the Democratic presidential candidate, but said she shares his support of Israel.

ALEX CHADWICK, host: From the studios of NPR West, this is Day to Day - history cracked. And now what? I'm Alex Chadwick.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: I'm Madeleine Brand. We'll follow this stunning political story throughout the show today. A black American clinches the Democratic presidential nomination. We'll speak with political leaders and analysts here and overseas.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: But we'll begin with a reporter. NPR's Scott Horsley, he watched a victorious Barack Obama today give a speech in Washington. Scott, welcome back. Senator Obama was speaking to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, that's a major organization for a traditional Democratic group that's been a little nervous about him, American Jews. What did he say?</s>HORSLEY: That's right, Alex. And the first thing Obama did, in an effort to reassure Jewish voters, is to just give a straightforward declaration of his unqualified support for Israel. He also talked in sort of personal terms about his own understanding of the Jewish state, which he got from a camp counselor as a child. He talked about the history of Jews and African-Americans standing shoulder-to-shoulder, even shedding blood together during the civil rights struggle.</s>HORSLEY: And he confronted head-on some of the Internet rumors and the false emails that continue to circulate suggesting that he's a closet Muslim or that somehow he wouldn't stand up for Israel.</s>Senator BARACK OBAMA (Democrat, Illinois): They're filled with tall tales and dire warnings about a certain candidate for president and all I want to say is, let me know if you see this guy named Barack Obama because he sounds pretty scary. But if anybody's been confused by these emails, I want you to know that today, I'll be speaking from my heart - and as a true friend of Israel.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Scott, it was Senator McCain speaking to this same group on Monday, and he was very critical of Senator Obama for his willingness to negotiate with Iran's president. So did the senator speak about that today? Was there a response on that point?</s>HORSLEY: Yes, Senator Obama said he was hesitant to be too partisan because he didn't want anyone watching in this country of another country to think that America's support for Israel was somehow a partisan thing. He said it crosses party lines; both Democrats and Republicans support Israel. And he acknowledged that Iran is a serious threat throughout the Middle East. But he also argued that Senator McCain's policy, in particular McCain's ongoing support for the Iraq War, have not made either Israel or the United States more safe.</s>Senator BARACK OBAMA (Democrat, Illinois): Senator McCain refuses to understand or acknowledge the failure of the policy he would continue. He criticizes my willingness to use strong diplomacy, but offers only an alternate reality - one where the war in Iraq has somehow put Iran on its heels. The truth is the opposite.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: And you know, these events are scheduled, I guess, months in advance, so the speaker following Senator Obama was Hillary Clinton. She spoke just moments after he did - didn't begin her speech with any reference to the events of yesterday, didn't in any way concede her role as a Democratic candidate. She did offer a note of support for Senator Obama.</s>HORSLEY: That's right. For a while, it looked as if Hillary Clinton might just ignore what happened yesterday altogether. But then she did pivot a bit and tried to reassure the AIPAC audience that Barack Obama shares her unqualified support for Israel now and forever, she said.</s>Senator HILLARY CLINTON (Democrat, New York): It has been an honor to contest these primaries with him. It is an honor to call him my friend. And let me be very clear, I know that Senator Obama will be a good friend to Israel.</s>HORSLEY: Senator Clinton also gave a partisan plug for electing a Democrat in November, whichever Democrat may be on the ballot, and she said it's not just Israel that faces challenges. She said the U.S. can only be a strong ally to Israel if it gets stronger here at home and strengthens its reputation in the world. I should say, by the way, that Senator Obama certainly congratulated Clinton for the way she had run the campaign, as did Senator McCain today. Both Obama and McCain are going to be working hard to win over Hillary Clinton's supporters.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: NPR's Scott Horsley in Washington for us today. Scott, thank you.</s>HORSLEY: My pleasure.

The NBA's most storied rivalry is back in a big way as the Boston Celtics play the Los Angeles Lakers in the finals. The match-up has hoops fans reminiscing about the old days, but there's plenty of star power in the current series.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: This is Day to Day. I am Madeleine Brand.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: I am Alex Chadwick. Coming up, one man's mission in a city of risk, bringing happiness to the streets of Las Vegas.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: First, the basketball fans last night witnessed the rebirth of one the greatest rivalries in sports, the Boston Celtics and the Los Angeles Lakers. In the 1960s, it was the Celtics' Bill Russell versus the Lakers' Wilt Chamberlain. In the 1980s, it was Larry Bird versus Magic Johnson.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: And now to the surprise and delight of many, both teams are back in the finals. The Celtics won last night in a really dramatic Game One. NPR's Chris Arnold reports from Boston.</s>CHRIS ARNOLD: There was a lot of hype and expectation around last night's game, the epic rivalry reborn, and the teams delivered, playing a close and exciting Game One. The night's signature moment came in the third quarter, when Celtics star Paul Pierce collapsed clutching his knee, and was carried off. But he soon returned playing with a sprain, and drained a pair of big three-point shots.</s>CHRIS ARNOLD: Also good for the Celtics, Lakers' star Kobe Bryant's shooting was a little bit off, something that's unlikely to continue. But even before the game started, Celtics fans were hungry.</s>CHRIS ARNOLD: Carol Sexton (ph), who says she's been a Celtics fan for 47 years, was jumping up and down and screaming before the game.</s>Ms. CAROL SEXTON (Boston Celtics Fan): No, I do that every game. I stand there and I do the jumping.</s>Mr. JOE SCOTCHELL (Boston Celtics Fan): Just like KG.</s>Ms. CAROL SEXTON (Boston Celtics Fan): Yeah, I do, yeah, yeah. My kids think I'm crazy.</s>CHRIS ARNOLD: Joe Scotchells (ph) was cheering next to her. He's been coming to games most of his life too, and remembers the Larry Bird days.</s>Mr. SCOTCHELLS: I came to Bird's first game with my father.</s>CHRIS ARNOLD: Oh, wow.</s>Mr. SCOTCHELLS: Yup, they let out a - I'll never forget. They let out a white dove into the rafters. And they flew around for, like, weeks. I'll never forget that. This is definitely great to have them back to where they used to be.</s>Ms. CAROL SEXTON (Boston Celtics Fan): This is tremendous, so exciting.</s>CHRIS ARNOLD: In recent years, the Lakers have had Bryant and a bunch of good players. They've won a few championships. But Celtics fans have been lost in the desert for a long time. For way more than a decade, the team has been really bad. They lost 18 games in a row last year. Brian Demaso (ph) was getting a beer at half-time.</s>Mr. BRIAN DEMASO (Boston Celtics Fan): It was painful, man. It was painful.</s>CHRIS ARNOLD: The Celtics had their beleaguered and frustrated star, Paul Pierce, but nobody really good for him to work with. Then at the end of last season, in some bold trades, the team scored two more all-stars. The deadly three-point shooter, Ray Allen, and this year's defense MVP, Kevin Garnett, KG.</s>Mr. BRIAN DEMASO (Boston Celtics Fan): All of a sudden, you got Garnett, it's, like, awesome.</s>CHRIS ARNOLD: Garnett is a basketball gladiator. He pounds his chest. He screams. He glowers at other players with a sweat-streaked, wide-eyed stare. But he is also a team player who's as good a passer as he is a shooter, and he's earned respect from everybody on the court or off. That includes Rick Berthold (ph) and Bill Cargen (ph), who were wearing green plastic hair and Celtics hats.</s>Mr. RICK BERTHOLD (Boston Celtics Fan): You don't realize how intense he is. How, you know, he's just absolutely focused. And that's what he's all about. And that's what - and that's infectious. And I think it's, you know, not just him, but what he does to the whole team, has really kind of changed...</s>Mr. BILL CARGEN (Boston Celtics Fan): Everybody - all - even Pierce has stepped it up.</s>CHRIS ARNOLD: So this Celtics team has fans in Boston embracing its basketball legacy.</s>Mr. JOHNNY MOST (Radio Announcer, Boston Celtics): (Yelling) Havlicek stole the ball. It's all over! It's all over!</s>CHRIS ARNOLD: That's the long-time radio voice of the Celtics' Johnny Most, calling the 1965 Division Finals deciding game against Philadelphia. Hall of Famer John Havlicek intercepted an inbounds pass, saving the game.</s>Mr. JOHNNY MOST (Radio Announcer, Boston Celtics): Bill Russell wants to grab Havlicek. He hugs him. He squeezes John Havlicek.</s>CHRIS ARNOLD: The Celtics' Bill Russell and Havlicek went on to beat the Los Angeles Lakers that year in the finals, and it was one of nine titles they won during the '60s. And 20 years later, the rivalry with the Lakers lived on with Larry Bird and Magic Johnson.</s>CHRIS ARNOLD: At a pregame practice before Game One, Lakers veteran, Derek Fisher, though, was trying to keep all the comparisons to the historic Lakers and Celtics players in perspective.</s>Mr. DEREK FISHER (Point Guard, Los Angeles Lakers): When you talk about Kareem, and Magic, and James Worthy, and Larry Bird, and Kevin McHale, and on, and on, and on, I mean, I feel like I'm a good player, but I've never ever even thought about comparing myself to those guys. So hopefully, we can put together that type of series, though, that people from both cities, fans from both teams, and people around the world hopefully, now that this game is as big as it is, we'll talk about this for a long time.</s>CHRIS ARNOLD: The teams are off to a good start. They meet again for Game Two Sunday night. Chris Arnold, NPR News, Boston.

Director Marina Zenovich delved into the director's psyche while making the film Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired. She looks back at his legal troubles and his unusual "blueprint."

MADELEINE BRAND, host: This is Day to Day from NPR News. I'm Madeleine Brand.</s>ALEX COHEN, host: And I'm Alex Cohen. Roman Polanski is one of the world's most famous directors. He made "Chinatown," "Rosemary's Baby," "The Pianist" and other great films.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: His achievements though, are overshadowed by something he did more than 30 years ago, back in the 1970s.</s>Unidentified Newscaster: Starting with his lawyer Douglas Dalton Polanski was asked by deputy district attorney Roger Gunson to what count he pleaded guilty. Polanski: "I had intercourse with a female person, not my wife, who was under 18 years of age." Gunson: "How old did you think the girl was?" Polanski: "I understood she was 13."</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Right before he was to be sentenced, Polanski fled to Paris, never to return to the United States for fear of being arrested. That story, what happened during the trial and the fallout is told in a new documentary that airs on HBO tonight.</s>Ms. MARINA ZENOVICH (Director, "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired"): I don't think anyone, other than the two of them know what really happened, but I was more interested in what happened after that and what made him flee.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Marina Zenovich is the director of the documentary "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired."</s>Ms. MARINA ZENOVICH (Director, "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired"): You know, for me, with Roman Polanski, you always have to go back in time. You know, it starts with his childhood in Poland where he survived the Holocaust where his mother was murdered. Goes to London in the swinging 60s and is making films, "Knife in the Water," "Cul-de-sac." Meets Sharon Tate, they fall in love and what was surprising for me was to just see how he had such hope in his life at a certain point when he was a hot young director after making "Rosemary's Baby." And then she was murdered. So, for me, in going back, it just painted a picture, for me, of what brought him to this night in 1977.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So, do you think that the murder of Sharon Tate, and he did say his marriage to her was the happiest time of his life, do you think that after that he fundamentally changed?</s>Ms. MARINA ZENOVICH (Director, "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired"): I think Roman Polanski is the survivor, but I thought Mia Farrow said it best, kind of that he didn't have the blueprint for life that most of us do</s>Ms. MIA FARROW (Actress): One hoped for Roman, you know, this brand new life with a woman who loved him, and who seemed so right for him. With a baby that there would be this security. That he had not had in his life, and in a new homeland. I mean the future was his, we thought. And then everything just collapsed.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Now, this was - as you paint in your documentary, an incredible media circus, almost on the level of the OJ trial, and at the center of it, is the judge.</s>Ms. MARINA ZENOVICH (Director, "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired"): Judge Laurence J. Rittenband, a fascinating character, I could have made a film about him. Rittenband was an elderly jurist who was quite powerful and cherry-picked this case, very media savvy and interested in what people thought of him.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: But he is - he's blamed by not only Polanski and Polanski's defense attorney but also the prosecutor for a miscarriage of justice.</s>Ms. MARINA ZENOVICH (Director, "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired"): Yeah, I mean, when I was interviewing the lawyers and discovered what had happened kind of behind closed doors, I was astounded.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So, what happened? What did he do that was the issue?</s>Ms. MARINA ZENOVICH (Director, "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired"): Polanski pleads guilty to unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor. The punishment was supposed to be based on a probation report. The judge got the probation report and it said that he wasn't a mentally disordered sex offender and the he shouldn't go to jail. And I think he was feeling a lot of pressure and didn't know what to do, so he started enlisting advice from Richard Brenneman who was a young journalist for the Santa Monica Evening Outlook at the time. He said, you know, I went into his chambers and he looked at me and said, Dick, tell me, what do I do about Polanski?</s>Mr. RICHARD BRENNEMAN (Journalist): I went, whoa, Your Honor, that's your decision, that's not mine. I'm a reporter, I can't advise you on something like that. I hadn't been covering courts that long, but I knew a decision by a judge was supposed to be a decision by a judge and was not to take in any advice from any other person other than what was there on the law books, what had been entered into evidence in the case.</s>Ms. MARINA ZENOVICH (Director, "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired"): I mean it's all this kind of manipulation of how these cases work.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So Polanski gets wind of this and he...</s>Ms. MARINA ZENOVICH (Director, "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired"): Well, Polanski goes for the 90-day diagnostic. He's told by his lawyer, you know, keep your chin up, this is it. At the end of this you are going to be free because, basically, that's what the judge told the lawyers. And the judge calls the lawyers into chambers and says, I've changed my mind. You know, I want him to go back to jail, or I want him to be deported. I mean, he was just kind of spouting whatever. I don't think he knew what to do. And in the end, Polanski ended up not knowing what was ahead of him. And you know, I don't want to give the movie away but, you know, he flees.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: What do the principals say now? What does the prosecutor say now about it?</s>Ms. MARINA ZENOVICH (Director, "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired"): I was quite shocked when the prosecutor in the case said to me in the interview, I'm not surprised that he left under those circumstances. It's a very telling moment in the film just because he's come full circle to being on the same side as Polanski's attorney because of the judge's actions. It's in no way forgiving Polanski, but it's explaining why he fled.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: You also interview the victim in this, Samantha Geimer, who for many, many years she was unknown to most people. Her name wasn't out there. What did she have to say about all this?</s>Ms. MARINA ZENOVICH (Director, "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired"): I'm quite impressed with Samantha Geimer because she is over this. I think she's made peace with it. I think she wants to move on. I think, ironically, her lawyer wanted a plea bargain because he didn't want her to forever be known as the girl who had sex with Roman Polanski. But ironically she is. And she's a happily-married mother of three, very sunny and clear-eyed, and just wants it to be finished.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Did you ever get an interview with Roman Polanski?</s>Ms. MARINA ZENOVICH (Director, "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired"): I ended up approaching Polanski at the end of production, and it took a very long time to get a response. I told him that I wanted to interview him. And he was very apologetic, and said he didn't want to be a prima donna, but he just felt that he shouldn't be in the film.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Has he ever expressed remorse for this?</s>Ms. MARINA ZENOVICH (Director, "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired"): He has, but I don't think it's as much as our culture needs. Honestly, I mean, it's never just enough. So, I think he feels that he went through the process and pled guilty and went through the probation report and went to what was to be considered his jail time. And he feels the rug was pulled out from under him. He suffered as well. It's like - I think this case is a tragedy for everyone involved.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: How did you come away feeling about him? What did you think of him?</s>Ms. MARINA ZENOVICH (Director, "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired"): My own opinion of Polanski changes, because you feel different things for him at different times in his life. You know, you feel sorry for him as a kid and what he endured. You feel sorry for him with regard to the Sharon Tate murder. But then he committed a horrific crime on a 13-year-old girl. But it was 30 years ago. And I'm not saying that we need to forgive him, I'm not saying that at all. It's just, kind of, like, I think we need to take a look at what got him to that place, and that's what I tried to do by making this movie. I think the story of the case deserves to be told.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Well, thank you very much.</s>Ms. MARINA ZENOVICH (Director, "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired"): Thank you.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: That's Marina Zenovich. Her new movie is called "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired." It airs tonight on HBO.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: There's more to come on Day to Day from NPR News.

Former Seinfeld writer Peter Mehlman is a pessimist by nature. But lately, he's been thinking about happiness. Not that thinking about it makes him any happier. He shares his thoughts on bliss.

ALEX CHADWICK, host: Back now with Day to Day. Coming up, consulting a psychic to find out what is the new what, but before we go there, is everybody happy?</s>Mr. PETER MEHLMAN (Former "Seinfeld" Writer): There's a guy in my neighborhood. When asked, how are you? He always says, I'm really happy.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Former "Seinfeld" writer and Day to Day contributor, Peter Mehlman, has been thinking about bliss.</s>Mr. PETER MEHLMAN (Former "Seinfeld" Writer): Every time I hear this I think the guy should be put on suicide watch. Or maybe he really is happy and simply lacks the grace to keep it to himself. But then, my attitude on this one is out of step with America. The truth is, one little nitpick the world has with us is that America is the happiest country on Earth and ultimately, nothing offends people like seeing others being happy. The world's dose of us is just potent enough to give the impression of an incorrigibly joyous, soda-sipping, hammy power nation of sports fans whose team never loses.</s>Mr. PETER MEHLMAN (Former "Seinfeld" Writer): They don't see the "Blue Velvet" scene under every small town or the homeless drift in the cities, but then neither do we. We are so committed to happiness, we ignore the overtly miserable. Our feeling is no, there but for the grace of god go you. I'm fine. This all started with the Founding Fathers who, in one of their rare Pollyanna moments, granted us the pursuit of happiness, 230 years later we're still running with it and our economy is still riding on it.</s>Mr. PETER MEHLMAN (Former "Seinfeld" Writer): Paramount isn't selling you the feel-ambivalent movie of the year. Old Navy isn't dressing you for Chapter 11. Harley Davidson isn't telling you that life is all about killing time between meals. Forget that getting there is half the agony. All that matters is you can get there. This belief is so strong that happiness is our society's great equalizer. A laid off Wal-Mart clerk with varicose veins in his eyes living in a suburb of Podunk can see George Clooney on a red carpet arm in arm with Venus and ask, yeah, but is he happy? Personally he looks pretty damn happy to me but again, I'm out of step with our gleeful democracy, although sometimes I do try to get in step.</s>Mr. PETER MEHLMAN (Former "Seinfeld" Writer): Like recently at the airport I was picking up my car from long term parking, which always sounds to me an insider's term for a cemetery but anyway, I was really kind of happy to be home. So happy that after posting bail for my car, I said to the cashier, have a great day. I got to say, such cheeriness felt nice, so I drove off trying to keep in touch with it. To keep that feeling of happiness, to be in the happy moment. After all, I thought, in America happy is supposed to be normal. Which of course, led me to the one thought shared by everyone in the world, what's it like to be normal? Which led me to the thought, have a great day? She's a cashier, what are the odds? Which led me to a final thought, it's good to be home.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Comedy writer Peter Mehlman. Tomorrow on the program, the antithisis of Peter Mehlman, Mr. Happiness, a man who spends his days on a Las Vegas street corner trying to make people smile.</s>Mr. HAPINESS (Street Corner Comedian, Las Vegas): I'm about all people, all colors all races and for everyone. Spread the love and joy baby.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Mr. Happiness, tomorrow on Day to Day.

Speculation continues over whether Barack Obama will choose Hillary Clinton as his running mate. No matter what his decision, he'll still have a Clinton problem if he reaches the White House. Our resident humorist offers advice on what to do about Bill.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: Back now with Day to Day. An Obama-Clinton ticket, a fantasy for many Democrats, but one fraught with complexities. Chief among them, former President Bill Clinton. In today's Unger Report, Brian Unger has this advice for Barack Obama on how to handle the Bill factor.</s>BRIAN UNGER: The most startling, frightening phone call that President Obama will answer in the White House won't be caused by a national security crisis at 3 a.m. Not if you listen to the pundits and even some unnamed Obama insiders. No, the most serious telephone exchange that President Obama will have in the Oval Office if he puts Hillary on the ticket, or if he doesn't, will sound something like this.</s>BRIAN UNGER: Unidentified Man #1: President Obama's office, can I help you?</s>BRIAN UNGER: Unidentified Man #2: Yes, we have a Mr. Bill Clinton here to see the president.</s>BRIAN UNGER: Unidentified Man #1: Could you hold on for a second, please?</s>BRIAN UNGER: Does President Obama then wave his hands frantically and say to his assistant, tell him I'm not here? Or does he say to his assistant, just tell the old man I'm out of the office - for eight years? This, the prospect of a former president loitering in the lobby of a sitting president seems to be about as far as the conversation has gotten regarding an Obama-Clinton ticket. It's not how Barack and Hillary would govern together that has Obama's people freaked, it's how to deal with Bill Clinton as Cosmo Kramer.</s>Mr. MICHAEL RICHARDS: (as Cosmo Kramer) I don't know if you've noticed, but lately I've been drifting aimlessly.</s>BRIAN UNGER: Jerry Seinfeld's disruptive, unhinged neighbor bursting through the Oval Office door with some unsolicited advice on Iran, or just waxing poetic about boxers, briefs or neither.</s>Mr. MICHAEL RICHARDS: (as Cosmo Kramer) Do you see what's going on here?</s>Mr. MICHAEL RICHARDS: (as Cosmo Kramer) No boxers, no jockeys.</s>Mr. MICHAEL RICHARDS: (as Cosmo Kramer) The only thing between him and us is a thin layer of gabardine.</s>BRIAN UNGER: Political scientists call it the Clinton-Cosmo Kramer conundrum. What to do about an unfiltered Bill Clinton dropping by the Obama White House?</s>Mr. MICHAEL RICHARDS: (as Cosmo Kramer) I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it.</s>BRIAN UNGER: Well, now there's hope for the Cosmo-Clinton conundrum. Hope is, after all, Obama's mission and message to deal with a wide range of huge, complex problems facing the nation. Doesn't a Cosmo-Clinton seem like the least of Obama's problems? The answer is simple. It's time to have an electronic monitoring bracelet attached to Bill Clinton's ankle. Coupled with human monitoring by the secret service, it would warn against two things: a crashing Cosmo-Clinton disrupting an Obama presidency, and Clinton showing up unannounced in the White House kitchen demanding ham and eggs.</s>Mr. MICHAEL RICHARDS: (as Cosmo Kramer) I'm free. I'm unfettered.</s>BRIAN UNGER: And that is today's Unger Report. I'm Brian Unger.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Weekly humor from the Unger Report every Monday on Day to Day.

Madeleine Brand checks in with comedy duo Frangela — Francis Callier and Angela V. Shelton — on the end of Hillary Clinton's campaign and the prospects for uniting the Democratic party under Barack Obama.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: Now for a slightly different take on the presidential race, we check back in with Francis Callier and Angela V. Shelton, otherwise known as the comedy duo Frangela. Welcome back, ladies.</s>FRANGELA: Hi! Thank you.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Well, Angela, let's start with you. You are one of those diehard Hillary supporters.</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): I am. I am a Hillary supporter.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: That Barack Obama needs and wants.</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): Really? Interesting. Maybe you all should have been nicer the last few months. I expect some flowers. Some candy - a little light courtship.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Do you expect a courtship?</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): No, I don't at all. I really think that this is not - this is about making sure that John McCain is not our president. And I am in full, as I have always said, will be in full support of whoever the Democratic nominee is. And since that appears to be Barack Obama, that is my candidate.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: But how do you feel about how it all went down, culminating in the Saturday speech?</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): I - you know, I think that for me an election is an election. It's a process and I didn't see it. I know other - a lot of people had problems with it, including Francis.</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): Yes, I did.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: What were your problems?</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): Let me tell you something, my neck was rolling, my hand was on my hip. I was hopping mad when she did not concede on Tuesday. I was burning up. Burning girl.</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): She was very emotional.</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): I was burning. I was like - and because you know I was the person the whole time that kept saying we need to see a Clinton-Obama ticket or an Obama-Clinton ticket. I need the dream ticket. I need the dream ticket. Oh, by Friday, I was like I don't need her on the ticket.</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): But when did you change back?</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): During the speech.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Saturday?</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): I told her because she was complaining all the way up to the stars(ph). She was like, I don't care. I'm mad.</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): I was mad, I was mad.</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): We can't get these three days back. I was like these three days, Francis? Seriously? Wednesday through Friday, those were the critical days?</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): Yes. Yes. I felt...</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): In this whole presidential campaign, it was those three days that we'll never get back?</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): We'll never get them back.</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): Honey, you should have heard her. I was like, why don't you give the girl a chance? Let here give her speech. She was like, I don't care what she says. I was like, let her give the speech, I guarantee you my girl's going to come through. She's talked to the party leadership, she talked to Obama. In this time, they've written that speech properly. Trust me, at about half-way through she went, I want my dream ticket. She was back to wanting her dream ticket.</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): I was!</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: You want it? And Angela?</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): I actually don't want it. I kind of think it's a mistake.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Why?</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): Well, this is going to sound really pessimistic, but I - and perhaps even like a beaten-down slave. But I really - I wonder if that's too much to ask. You know, I feel like to have had a woman be that close in the primary situation, you know, is already historic. To have an African-American man be our, potentially our nominee and to hopefully win, I feel like it might be a lot to ask to have them both win. I feel like...</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): I think it's...</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): You feel like you're tempting fate, is that? Yeah, I feel like...</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): Oh come on, girl, dream it! We can dream it! It can happen!</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): I feel like they may have let us have an extra slice of cornbread and now we're asking for more grits.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: You know...</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): Move tonight, girl!</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): But sometimes when you ask too much of masser, he changes on you.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: All right. You two have a radio call-in show.</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): Yes.</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): Yes.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So what are you hearing from your listeners?</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): On Saturday was the day of feeling, OK? We told everybody, you know what? Get it out. Feel your feelings, be mad, be happy.</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): Gloat.</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): Yes.</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): Complain. Whatever you want to do.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: And what did you hear?</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): People were complaining.</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): We were gloating.</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): A lot of gloating. Anger. A lot of anger.</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): Happiness. You know, a lot of mixed emotions. But we said come Sunday morning, you will get in line. That's right. Sunday was the day of healing. Saturday was feeling, Sunday is healing.</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): And it's time to get behind Barack Obama. When I hear people say they're not going to vote, or they're going to vote for McCain because Hillary didn't get the nomination, I get really concerned.</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): Well, it makes me feel as though you didn't support Hillary. You were supporting something else.</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): Yeah.</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): Because if you were for her ideals and platform, and the things that Hillary Clinton was about, you couldn't be supporting John McCain.</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): Or refusing to vote.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: What does Barack Obama need to do, if anything, what does he need to do to win them over?</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): I think for one thing I think that Hillary, she needs to go out there and campaign with him as actively as possible. And really, as I think she did in that speech, demand it of her supporters. You know, because she was basically like your mama, would be like, oh you will!</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): You will!</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): Help this man get elected. If I have to do it, you have to do it. But I think for Barack, the things I think he can do are really speak to the country as he has, but make it clear this isn't about his, him being a man, him being African-American, him being, Hillary Clinton being a woman or being white.</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): Right, exactly.</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): This is about a war, this is about an economy that's tanking.</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): Yeah.</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): This is about our environment, this is about schools where kids are being killed and not learning.</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): Yeah.</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): This is about a whole bunch of issues that should not - where those other issues shouldn't come into play.</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): Yes, put your country before your candidate. Put your country before your party. Put your country before your feelings, you know, about who you wanted to win.</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): Yeah, this isn't the homecoming court.</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): No.</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): It's like kind of important.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Francis Callier and Angela V. Shelton, Frangela, the comedy duo. Thank you both.</s>Ms. ANGELA SHELTON (Comedian): Thank you.</s>Ms. FRANCIS CALLIER (Comedian): Thank you.

Former Washington Post reporter Patrice Gaines offers another dispatch from her hometown of Lake Wylie, S.C. In this post-Thanksgiving reflection, Gaines remembers how generations of good cooking and a tradition of homemade bread shape her own sense of family.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: From the world of high tech to the slower side of life, we head to Lake Wylie, South Carolina. That's where former Washington Post reporter Patrice Gaines wrote today's Snapshot. Patrice remembers how generations of good cooking shaped her own sense of family.</s>Ms. PATRICE GAINES (Former Reporter, Washington Post): My grandmother made perfect biscuits - soft, flaky, golden on top. She made big pans of her biscuits for me whenever I visited her in Washington, D.C. She pulls them out of the oven and placed them lovingly on a dinner plate. She'd bring them to me along with a smaller saucer, a bottle of dark caramel syrup or Brer Rabbit Molasses. I'd slather the biscuits with butter, poured syrup or molasses into the saucer and use the bread to sop it up. I was in my 20s. I didn't have to think about my waistline.</s>Ms. PATRICE GAINES (Former Reporter, Washington Post): As the years past and I got older, I tried to replicate granny's bread. But my biscuits were too heavy - thicker than they should be. They didn't fall apart in my mouth like they were supposed to, like every biscuit granny ever made. One day, with a pencil and notebook in my hand, I led granny into the kitchen and said, please teach me how to make biscuits like you. I stood next to her -close enough to smell her Chanel No. 5 perfume and nearly brush her arms. I love to rub those plump arms. I love the way her flesh was always cool to the touch. She was wearing her usual at-home attire - one of her floral house coats and her hair net though her short hair was always pressed perfectly in place.</s>Ms. PATRICE GAINES (Former Reporter, Washington Post): From her cabinet, she pulled out all of the ingredients she needed. You put this much flour in the bowl, she said. She poured flour into the big green glass bowl. How much flour is that, I asked? I don't know, she said, nonchalantly. Here, hold the bowl and see how it feels. I was flabbergasted. I didn't know how to write that in a recipe.</s>Ms. PATRICE GAINES (Former Reporter, Washington Post): At that moment, I saw the most delicious biscuits I would ever eat slipping away from me and out of my life. We had those biscuits every Thanksgiving until 1985 - the year granny died after suffering a series of strokes. When she left our lives, we lost so many things - her giggle that quickly built into a hardy round laugh that made everyone else laugh, too. The grandmother who pressed coins into the palms of her grandchildren's hands on nearly every visit. The shop dresser who had her hats made by a milliner, And the biscuits left our family, too, forever. Granny left before teaching her daughter, my mother, how to make biscuits.</s>Ms. PATRICE GAINES (Former Reporter, Washington Post): My mother was a master cornbread maker. Jiffy was not a word in her vocabulary. She made her cornbread from scratch. She baked it an old, almost black, rectangular pan. Every Thanksgiving, mama crumbled up a day-old pan of this cornbread and made the best dressing I have ever had. We ate this dressing every Thanksgiving until 1994. That year, while I bake the turkey on Thanksgiving Day, my mother, ill with cancer, slipped in to a coma and died. There would be no more rectangular pans of cornbread made from scratch, no more turkey dressing made from that cornbread. I miss mama a lot - even today.</s>Ms. PATRICE GAINES (Former Reporter, Washington Post): Of course, I remember her especially on Thanksgiving and especially when I start cooking. My sister Carol(ph) fixes potato salad like mama's. My sister Sheila(ph) cooks greens the way she did. No one can make the cornbread. I made yeast rolls instead. My daughter and nieces and nephews - and even their friends - tell me they are the best rolls in the world. I love the smell of the rolls rising in the hot oven, the aroma of fresh bread floating through the house on Thanksgiving.</s>Ms. PATRICE GAINES (Former Reporter, Washington Post): My daughter loves to sit and wait on the first pan so she can slather her bread with butter and pop warm pieces of rolls into her mouth. Watching rising dough and kneading is my contribution to tradition. Now, I am the matriarch of my family. There are times when we are gathered at the Thanksgiving table and I look around and realize that there are children and even grown folks there who never sampled mama's cornbread or granny's biscuits. At those times, I am thankful for everyone one of my 58 years, especially the days I got to taste the love that came out of those ovens. I scan the table, look at my clan and wonder who will bake the bread when I am gone, and what kind of bread will it be.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That was author and writing coach Patrice Gaines with this week's Snapshot. She told us her story from member station WFAE in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Barack Obama is now the first African American to ever secure a major party nomination for president. Hakeem Jeffries, an African-American assemblyman in New York City, discusses this historic moment.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: Senator Obama has inspired millions of young voters and at least one young politician. His name is Hakeem Jeffries; he's on the line now from New York. He's a Democratic New York State assemblyman from Brooklyn. And Assemblyman, you and Senator Obama - you two share a lot of similarities. Tell us, what's your background?</s>Assemblyman HAKEEM JEFFRIES (Brooklyn, New York City, New York): Well, I was raised in Brooklyn, New York. After graduating from college, went on to graduate school, law school, practiced law for several years and then in 2006, was elected to represent several neighborhoods in Brooklyn in the New York State Assembly.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: But you share a similar political philosophy, correct?</s>Assemblyman HAKEEM JEFFRIES (Brooklyn, New York City, New York): Well, absolutely. I think it was particularly inspiring to me when I had run for office. Initially I challenged an incumbent, came out of an insurgent movement much like Senator Obama did in Chicago. And some folks said, well, someone with a name like Hakeem Jeffries, you might have a problem getting elected in my little assembly district in Brooklyn, but it became clear to me that if a Barack Obama could be elected to the United State Senate, first out of Illinois, and then secure the nomination last night for a major political party, that certainly anything was possible. So it's inspiring for me, it was inspiring for my two young sons. I think it was inspiring for a lot of African-Americans across this country in terms of what's possible.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: What did you say to your two young sons last night?</s>Assemblyman HAKEEM JEFFRIES (Brooklyn, New York City, New York): Well, you know, it's been interesting because I think prior to the start of this campaign, Nickelodeon was the preferred channel in the house, but that's slowly giving way to CNN and MSNBC. And I wasn't at home yesterday because we're in session in Albany, but I talked to my oldest son and told him that today was the day, it appeared, that Senator Obama would become the nominee. And he's followed this campaign, he's known that he was competing against someone named Hillary Clinton, and that whoever won was going to then face John McCain to become the president. And I could tell that there was a gleam in his voice as a result of what I projected to my son would be this primary victory.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: What about emotionally? How is it for you seeing this historic moment, an African-American man, achieve their party's nomination?</s>Assemblyman HAKEEM JEFFRIES (Brooklyn, New York City, New York): I'm very optimistic about where we go as a country in the future, because folks under 45 have not been through the same racial wars as those in the older generations and I really believe see the country, see our communities through a lens that is increasingly color-blind. And that is perhaps one of the reasons why Senator Obama has done so well, particularly with younger Americans.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: He does, though, still have that problem with older, white, working- class voters.</s>Assemblyman HAKEEM JEFFRIES (Brooklyn, New York City, New York): I think he can increasingly connect with white,working-class voters on issues which are important to them. The Republicans often, I believe, have gotten folks to vote against their own economic interests by using wedge cultural issues, sometimes wedge racial issues, sometimes promoting foreign policy fears. But we have an important opportunity this year to change all of that, to move in a different direction.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Hakeem Jeffries represents Brooklyn in the New York State Assembly. Assemblyman, thank you for joining us.</s>Assemblyman HAKEEM JEFFRIES (Brooklyn, New York City, New York): Thank you, always a pleasure.

It's time to join the other Christmas shoppers on Black Friday and brave the crowded malls. Or you may choose to sit at home in your pajamas and shop on your computer. But before you enter your credit card number online, our regular tech contributor Mario Armstrong has a few things you should now.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya. And this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It's Black Friday and we don't mean race. Retailers are hoping holiday shoppers will make a mad dash to their local malls, but maybe you'll sit this one out, stay home in your pajamas and shop online. Before you hand your credit card number over to the Internet, there are few things you should know.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Here with safety tips and more is our regular tech contributor Mario Armstrong. Hey, Mario.</s>MARIO ARMSTRONG: Hey, Farai. How are you?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm doing great. Shopping online, much more popular.</s>MARIO ARMSTRONG: Yes, it is.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: According to the Sacramento Bee, holiday surveys say that the number of online shoppers will jump 30 percent. So there is this whole issue of safety, what should people know?</s>MARIO ARMSTRONG: It is this whole issue of safety and they're just talking about Black Friday. They're not even - really even mentioning cyber Monday, which is the big online shopping day. But a couple of things to think about. Number one - and I don't know if you've done this, Farai, but do not use a debit card. Have you ever done that?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Oh, I paid the price. I had - someone hacked into my account and then I had no money in my bank account.</s>MARIO ARMSTRONG: Oh, see, I didn't even know that. Seriously, folks, you cannot use your debit card. And that's the number one reason. It is direct access to your checking account.</s>MARIO ARMSTRONG: Number two, with debit cards, they don't have the same protection as do credit cards. So if something was to happen or if you didn't like the goods that you bought, you have other protections in place. Something else to look out for, the season is running rampant with what is called fishing scams. And this really means a couple of things.</s>MARIO ARMSTRONG: Number one, just do not click links in an e-mail. I know you've seen this e-mail, Farai. You know, they come out and they say, hey, click here for a special discount at what seems to be a respected outlet. And you click that link and you'll land on the Web site and it looks totally legit. They've copied it from corner to corner of the screen, but it, in fact, is a sight that's capturing any personal identifiable information that you may place into the site. So don't click on any links in any e-mails. Use one credit card for all your cyber shopping and then make sure that the Web site is secure. Look in the top bar where it says http and look for the S to make sure the site is secure.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So now that we have our safety tips, what are we going to spend our money on?</s>MARIO ARMSTRONG: Ah, so - too many choices out there. I mean, everything from - the hottest things that you're going to see, really, this season are large screen televisions, people are really interested in making that purchase and are looking for good deals on that. But handheld devices like smartphones are always on the top category. Digital cameras, mp3 players are number one on the list again this year. And what rounds out kind of the top five are GPS devices.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So we've talked a little bit about this conversion to HDTV, but buying a flat screen doesn't have that much to do with it. I'm sure that most of the ones now are HD. Is that - well, actually maybe I'm not sure. What do you think about that?</s>MARIO ARMSTRONG: Yeah. That's a great point. I mean there's a lot of confusing going on in this whole market about television. High definition is kind of like the Cadillac or, I don't know, BMW, top of the line for your television screens. So you do need to be educated when you're going shopping to make sure you are, in fact, getting an HDTV if you are intending to watch HD television programming.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, there are all these choices. There's LCD and Plasma.</s>MARIO ARMSTRONG: Right.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Someone told me that one of them you shouldn't lay flat after you use it and then all these rules. What's the difference? What's the pro? What's the con?</s>MARIO ARMSTRONG: You need to know the environment where the TV is going to be. That's number one. Is the room a dark room? Does it have a lot of natural light? Will it be in a sun room? If it's in a dark space, Plasmas do excellent in dark rooms. They're great for movie buffs and to really mimic that home theater experience.</s>MARIO ARMSTRONG: And then lastly, Farai, make sure that you understand exactly where you're going to be sitting. In other words, actually take a tape measure and measure the distance of where the television will be to where you'll be watching it from and any angles that you may be watching the television from. And take those measurements and the tape measure with you to the store because all of the televisions don't look the same and some have - some you can't even notice what's on the screen when you start getting into a 45 or more degree angle.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That sounds like a lot of work right there.</s>MARIO ARMSTRONG: It is a lot of work.</s>MARIO ARMSTRONG: You know, you wonder if consumers are really ready for all of these. But - oh, and the last thing, please invest in that extended home - that extended warranty. I normally don't recommend this, but I think people should budget this into the cost of a television because we don't really know. These televisions and technology is still fairly new. We don't really know what could go wrong and whether or not, you know, you pay a couple of thousand dollars, you want the investment to be around for a while.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, if you're talking about bringing a tape measure, that's not going to help online.</s>MARIO ARMSTRONG: That's true.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What do you do then?</s>MARIO ARMSTRONG: I still think you need to go out to the store and actually see the unit and actually physically understand the measurements. But then maybe use the Internet to see if you can find a better deal.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Mario, thanks so much.</s>MARIO ARMSTRONG: Thank you, Farai. Happy Black Friday.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That's right. Mario Armstrong is our NEWS & NOTES tech contributor.

The conversation about creating a drama-free holiday continues. Karen Hudson is co-author of The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times, and La Joyce Brookshire is author of the soon-to-be-released Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: If you're just tuning in, today we're talking about how to survive family tensions during the holidays with Karen Hudson, co-author of "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times," also La Joyce Brookshire. She's a minister, naturopathic doctor and author of the upcoming "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love."</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Thanks again.</s>Ms. KAREN HUDSON (Co-author, "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times"): Thank you.</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author, "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So Karen, you are someone who has not only multiple generations of living family in the same city, you also are in the family business. You must have had to work a lot of stuff out in order to be able to have your sustained, civil discourse with all the members of your family. What happened or helped you at moments when your tempers were frayed?</s>Ms. KAREN HUDSON (Co-author, "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times"): I don't know that it's temper as much as frustration. And I worked for my brother at Broadway Federal Bank, and it's the kind of thing where, you know, sometimes it's not a decision I want made. I come from a family who's very chauvinistic and, you know, the men sort of run things when it comes to business. But, on the other hand, my brother has been very generous in allowing me in my creativity, allowing me an opportunity to participate in decision making. So it's frustration that never carries over.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Do you have any advice if you have lost your temper, and I'm not saying you ever have, but if you do lose your temper, what's the protocol then?</s>Ms. KAREN HUDSON (Co-author, "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times"): Well, I've had and I've also worked with other relatives, you know, not at the bank necessarily, but you lose your temper. And I don't think it's any different than any other situation. There's a way to handle everything. For me, it's not cussing and fussing. I will make my point known. I will make it known at the appropriate time. And the one thing with family business is you don't do it with an audience. I think it says what Joyce said earlier: You take it aside, you do it in different position. My brother is generous enough that it's not even if you don't disagree, it's like we didn't get that assignment, and he's never going to ask me about it in the family dinner. Never.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, LaJoyce, what about you? If you happen to get hot under the collar about something that a kin has done, what do you do to open up after that -reopen communications?</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author, "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): We tackle it head on. We call family meetings. We - we're scattered about the country, so we don't have the luxury of being in the same city. There are a nest of us that are still in Chicago. I'm not in Chicago anymore. But - and they do see one another regularly, but we are a family who has always been encouraged to let it out, let it go and let God. And so in that, we don't - with my immediate family - I have six brothers and two sisters and I have probably 32 nieces and nephews and 10 great nieces and nephews. So we are crew.</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author, "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): And, you know, when ever one is hot under the collar and in a family situation and when we are together, it's like the whole room filled with tension. So something a person in the family will hold the other person - the two people's hands who were at odds - and drag them off to a room and we know what's happening back there, that they are forced to work it out.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What about kids? You have a 5-year-old daughter with your second husband.</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author, "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): Yes.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And I'm sure there's a lot of young kids in your family. Do you feel that you can reach out and touch someone who's not your child, or do you feel -and I don't mean necessarily here - I just mean, what's the protocol around that for you at holidays if you see some kid acting out? Do you feel like you can go up and approach them about it?</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author, "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): No, absolutely. We believe that it takes an entire village to raise a child, and I was - grew up in a unique neighborhood in Chicago on the South side. Our block, we still have several families who were there when I was raised there and the children have now bought houses on the block. And if people die, they still buy - other people in the families buy the houses. So we have a very tight-knit community.</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author, "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): And as you say that, I - it comes to mind of our block-club party when I was home in Chicago this summer in July. And you know, the kids were cutting up. Well, one person, Ms. Alice from down the block, had four of the children, like our kids, by the hands bringing each of them to the center of the street and made them apologize and, you know, for the infraction that they had created. And we just sat around and said, um, Ms. Alice took care of that.</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author, "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): And because - but now the problem is that the oldest don't step in enough because they are afraid that, you know, A, they might get shot, they might get told off. You know, there are lots of reasons why the village doesn't raise the children anymore, but we are firm believers of still doing that.</s>Ms. KAREN HUDSON (Co-author, "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times"): You know, I grew up on the same block. It just happened to be in Los Angeles.</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author, "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): Mm-hmm.</s>Ms. KAREN HUDSON (Co-author, "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times"): I went to a funeral a month ago of the woman who lived three doors down from us when I was a child, and the neighborhood is still very much the same. It was very interesting, at the funeral, afterwards the repast, we had that conversation about how blessed we were that everyone was looking out for us.</s>Ms. KAREN HUDSON (Co-author, "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times"): We knew the teachers, our parents, you know, the principal was the same one at the school forever, (unintelligible) he'd change every year. And that's something, you know, I don't have children, but I will do it in an appropriate way, but I will say something. You know, and maybe in a friendly way like the etiquette police are out.</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author, "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): That's right.</s>Ms. KAREN HUDSON (Co-author, "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times"): Will you cut that out. Or and the worse offense is to me is how some of these young children dress and…</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author, "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): Absolutely. Absolutely.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, it's about time for us to wrap up. I just want to give each of you a chance for any final thoughts that will carry people through that vast holiday season stretching from Thanksgiving all the way through the New Year. La Joyce?</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author, "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): I would have to say that if there is anything that you're harboring against the family person, you cannot conquer what you don't confront and understand honestly and the goodness that the truth will make you free.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Karen?</s>Ms. KAREN HUDSON (Co-author, "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times"): Carry yourself like your grandmother is looking over your shoulder every day of your life.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Karen, LaJoyce, thank you so much.</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author, "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): Thank you.</s>Ms. KAREN HUDSON (Co-author, "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times"): Thank you. Happy Thanksgiving.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Happy Thanksgiving.</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author, "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): One to you too. Bye.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We've been speaking with LaJoyce Brookshire, a minister, naturopathic doctor and author. Her upcoming book is "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love," also Karen Hudson. She's the co-author of "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times." And she joined me from our NPR West studios.

Alex Chadwick talks to John Dickerson of Slate.com about the confusion over whether or when Hillary Clinton will concede the race to Barack Obama. And two superdelegates also discuss their recent endorsements.

ALEX CHADWICK, host: From the studios of NPR West, this is Day to Day. I'm Alex Chadwick.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: And I'm Madeleine Brand. Coming up General Motors announces that it will close plants that make SUV's and it may scrap the Hummer.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: First, in South Dakota and Montana today, the long primary season finally does end. There are conflicting statements reported from the campaign of Senator Clinton about her plans.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: The campaign chair says she will not concede, but an earlier report from the Associated Press quotes her senior campaign official saying the Senator would acknowledge that Senator Obama will get the number of delegates he needs to get the nomination. The Clinton campaign, again, refutes that report.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: John Dickerson, chief political writer for Slate.com, John, is this a careful parsing of language, or what?</s>Mr. JOHN DICKERSON (Chief Political Writer, Slate.com): Yes, it's a careful parsing of language. It's also language coming out in the middle of negotiations between the two campaigns, negotiations that are going on in both real time and also in the press. And it's also a sign of confusion. One of the big thing that's up in the air is the question of does Barack Obama have the actual numbers? And that will push Senator Clinton, I think, one way or the other if by the time she's giving his speech he's gotten over that important threshold number. And we'll just have to see if that happens.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: This number is 2,118, that's the number of total delegates that you will need now to win the nomination in the Democratic Party, that's the number.</s>Mr. JOHN DICKERSON (Chief Political Writer, Slate.com): That's exactly right, and Obama will get to that number. It's just a question of whether he gets to it tonight. You know part of this, the parsing, is about what Senator Clinton will say tonight in her speech after these primary results come in. And if by that hour the magical number has been reached that will affect the speech in one way. If that magical number isn't reached until, say, tomorrow, a few more superdelegates come out, then that changes what Clinton may be forced to say when she speaks tonight.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: John, we do know that Senator Clinton has plans for this big event in New York tonight, this speech you've referred to. She's called in supporters and big donors from all around the country - invited them to come to this event. There are reports that word has gone out to staff that they have one more week left and then the campaign is not going to be paying them any longer. What are they waiting for?</s>Mr. JOHN DICKERSON (Chief Political Writer, Slate.com): Well, they are waiting, both sides are waiting, as you point out, it's over. Now the question is just how to manage the end. And there are a couple of constituencies here. One, Clinton wants to have maybe some of her debts paid off. There are a lot of rumors going around. So - there's a question of her debts. There's also a question of her supporters, some of the African-American supporters, have taken a lot of flack for supporting her and not Barack Obama. Then there's the question of the vice presidency. Will she be offered it?</s>Mr. JOHN DICKERSON (Chief Political Writer, Slate.com): Will they at least have a conversation about it? And then there are all kinds of other issues, including will Barack Obama say anything, perhaps, to tamp down or absolve Bill Clinton of some of the things he's said that have been perceived by some people to have a kind of racial tinge to them? Lots of issues to be played out there. Barack Obama doesn't want to force Clinton's hand too much. He knows it's over, he knows he's got the numbers.</s>Mr. JOHN DICKERSON (Chief Political Writer, Slate.com): In fact, one of the ways he'll be evaluated by her supporters, many of whom have raised the charge of sexism, is how he handles her exit from the race. Is he sufficiently gracious? Does he being this party healing process that everyone's desperate, everyone in the Democratic Party anyway, is desperate to have begin.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Senator Obama is holding a rally in St. Paul, Minnesota tonight. That's where he's going to be, not in Montana or South Dakota, but St. Paul, Minnesota. What is the point of that?</s>Mr. JOHN DICKERSON (Chief Political Writer, Slate.com): Well, I'm actually with Senator Obama in Chicago right now. He's flying at the end of the day to Minnesota. That's where the Republicans will hold their convention. Minnesota is a swing state. And Obama is going there to basically kick off his general election campaign. He's had lots of little mini kickoffs, he's really been in a fight more with John McCain, much more so than Hillary Clinton. But this is an attempt for him to being telling the story that will consume us for the rest of the election year as we go into the general election. So he's going there and he'll talk about bringing people together. He'll talk about, you know, he's in a swing state so he has to be there to kind of fight for that state that will be important in the battleground map for the general election. And he wants to set the themes on his own terms for that general election battle with John McCain.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: John Dickerson, from Slate.com, with Senator Obama on his way to Minnesota. John, thank you.</s>Mr. JOHN DICKERSON (Chief Political Writer, Slate.com): Thanks, Alex.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: One of New York State's last undecided superdelegates has decided. She is Irene Stein of Ithaca, New York and she's chairwoman of the Tompkins County Democratic Committee. She's here now. And welcome to the program, Ms. Stein, who are you backing?</s>Ms. IRENE STEIN (Superdelegate, Chairwoman, Tompkins County Democratic Committee): I'm backing Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton. I'm convinced having thought this through very carefully and watched every kind and source of information that I could think of that she is the candidate that is strongest against the Republican candidate John McCain.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Why did you wait until now?</s>Ms. IRENE STEIN (Superdelegate, Chairwoman, Tompkins County Democratic Committee): Two different kinds of reasons. One, I take my responsibility as superdelegate very seriously and that responsibility is to act according to my judgment as to what would be best for the Democratic Party and the nation. Second, it was a very difficult situation for me personally because Tompkins County, my county, is the only county in New York State where a majority of the voters supported Senator Obama in the primary. So, I take that very seriously.</s>Ms. IRENE STEIN (Superdelegate, Chairwoman, Tompkins County Democratic Committee): Secondly, I was elected to this DNC, which in turn allowed me to be a superdelegate. And I was elected by the State Democratic Committee, which is heavily supportive of Hillary Clinton. I have a lot of conflicting pressures on me. I would watch the data very, very carefully, and I came to the conclusion that we will not win with Senator Obama if he is our candidate. Hillary Clinton is substantially stronger when you look at the analysis that shows how they fare in each state according to that state's Electoral College votes. Because as you know, the popular vote does not elect a president.</s>Ms. IRENE STEIN (Superdelegate, Chairwoman, Tompkins County Democratic Committee): We found that out, unfortunately, at the beginning of the Bush years, in my opinion. The Electoral College vote does, and Hillary Clinton is very strong, and she easily beats McCain and this has been consistent. Putting that hard data together with my judgment and my gut based on about 30 years in political life, 30 years of interacting with people in politics, I just felt that Hillary Clinton is the much stronger candidate.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: But do you worry that your vote now may be a little - too little too late? That Barack Obama...</s>Ms. IRENE STEIN (Superdelegate, Chairwoman, Tompkins County Democratic Committee): I did not feel ready to make a vote earlier, and I don't know if I would have altered anything by making a vote earlier.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: How do you feel though about going against the wishes of your constituents, the voters in your county who went for Barack Obama?</s>Ms. IRENE STEIN (Superdelegate, Chairwoman, Tompkins County Democratic Committee): I'm not happy about it. But I was not elected by them to make this particular judgment and I've explained it to them to the best of my ability, and I hope and believe that they respect my goodwill and I think they fully understand no one will work harder than I to elect the Democratic candidate, no matter who that person is.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Ms. Stein, thank you for joining us.</s>Ms. IRENE STEIN (Superdelegate, Chairwoman, Tompkins County Democratic Committee): You're very welcome.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: That's Irene Stein of Ithaca, New York, a newly announced superdelegate for Hillary Clinton.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Seattle lawyer and Democratic superdelegate David McDonald was on the Party's Rules Committee that met over the weekend to settle the difficult issue of the errant Michigan and Florida primaries. He stayed undeclared through that process and now says he will vote for Senator Obama. David McDonald, we spoke on Friday. Welcome back. How long have you known that Senator Obama is your candidate?</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Democratic superdelegate): Oh, I would say about 18, 19 hours, or so...</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Really? You only just made up your mind, really truly?</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Democratic superdelegate): Yeah.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: I know that you felt you shouldn't say where you were before this Rules Committee meeting over the weekend, but did you really have some instinct of where you were going?</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Democratic superdelegate): No. But what I had is from watching that either one of them could win the general election. And just to step back a bit on the process, I really was doing my best to simply not get attached to either candidate. But once the Rules Committee was over, I had the day to sightsee in D.C. and took it rather than watching news that day. And having a six-hour plane flight with no cell phone interruptions and unfortunately, or fortunately I suppose, no movies on the plane that I hadn't seen. And a night's sleep, and then woke up and thought, well, you know, I need to think about this, this morning, and started thinking about it, but I needed some free time, frankly. I mean, I kept coming back to the fact that Obama started with a 50-state strategy and was willing to go early into relatively tough territory where we for the last number of years have not really been contesting seats, and dig out Democrats and organize them. That and coupled with the energy level that I was seeing in Obama supporters were really kind of the tipping factors.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: What do you think of the process this year? Because Senator Obama does come to the end of this, well, as John Dickerson writes at Slate.com, not sprinting across the finish line. I mean it's a difficult end for him.</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Democratic superdelegate): It is a difficult end. But what he gains from it is he is tested. A president's got to be able to deal with surprises and adversity. I mean, let's face it. That job does not go according to script. So he's gotten out of this extended campaign something he never would have gotten if everybody folded up on February 15th.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: You've said that you're confident either candidate can win the general election.</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Democratic superdelegate): Yes.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: But I wonder what is your assessment of Senator McCain as a candidate. And what does your party have to do in order to win? Against him?</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Democratic superdelegate): I'd say the main thing we have to do to win against McCain is remind people that he's not all that different than George Bush. And I don't think the public wants to continue the Bush agenda.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: But if the public has an idea of Senator McCain, it is as someone who often disagrees with his party leadership and with the White House. He's been a difficult ally for the Bush White House for years.</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Democratic superdelegate): My memory is that he was a more difficult ally for them before the 2000 race for president than after. And that afterwards, when he could begin to see he might run again, he seems to have been far more supportive of Bush. And I think it's the last eight years, the actual Bush tenure that we need to look at.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: What role would you like Senator Clinton to play now?</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Democratic superdelegate): I would like her to put in the same tenacity into getting a White House administration that's Democratic and a broad mandate from the public to carry across an agenda that both Houses of Congress will support. And I think, from the years I've known her that's what she wants to do too. I mean, she probably wants a night's sleep, or something, but you know, I think that's where she is too.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: David McDonald, superdelegate from Seattle and now declared supporter of Senator Obama for that nomination. David, thank you.</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Democratic superdelegate): Thanks.

Stanley "Tookie" Williams — a co-founder of the notorious Crips street gang — was executed in December 2005. It reignited a debate about the death penalty and treatment for inmates who, as Williams did, atone for their crimes while behind bars. Barbara Becnel talks about her friendship with Williams and his new memoir, Blue Rage, Black Redemption.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It's been nearly two years since the state of California executed Stanley "Tookie" Williams by lethal injection. Williams co-founded the notorious Crips gang. He'd been on death row since the early 1980s for four murders, he says, he did not commit. And that was just part of the controversy over whether Williams was unrepentant or uniquely valuable in the fight against gang violence.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: By time he died, he had committed himself to nonviolence and gang prevention. He wrote children's books. He was even nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Two years after his death, Williams' new autobiography has hit stores. It's called "Blue Rage, Black Redemption." Author Barbara Becnel, a close friend of Williams, edited the memoir and wrote the epilogue. I asked her why Williams focused so much of the book on his childhood in South Central Los Angeles.</s>Ms. BARBARA BECNEL (Editor, "Blue Rage, Black Redemption"): It's just simply no doubt that the public school system failed Stanley "Tookie" Williams because it turns out, these many years later, he's tested for an IQ test and it turns out he's borderline genius, that the public school system in South Central Los Angeles in the late - mid-1960s and it did fail Stanley "Tookie" Williams. So - I mean, that's just the truth of it. But I guess he was just a symbol.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This book really details how he went from someone who helped found the Crips, and then to move on once he went to prison to write children's books. I want to walk us through a couple of the different phases of his life. First of all, why don't you tell us why you think the Crips got started based on what Stanley "Tookie" Williams told you?</s>Ms. BARBARA BECNEL (Editor, "Blue Rage, Black Redemption"): Well, what he said to me was that South Central in 1971 was not protected by the Los Angeles Police Department. And so - but it was overrun with gangs even prior to the Crips being formed. So what happened was both he and Raymond Lee Washington decided to get together and form a gang that would protect them and their friends and their family members from the gangs that were ruling the streets of both the Eastside of L.A. and the Westside of L.A. in the black community.</s>Ms. BARBARA BECNEL (Editor, "Blue Rage, Black Redemption"): So in that sense then, they started off as a self-policing entity. But albeit, they - what he conceded is that it didn't take long before the Crips then became the very thing that - and behaving in the very same way as the gangs that the Crips formed - to protect themselves from.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: From that, he was convicted. What were the crimes that he was convicted for? He always maintained that he did not commit those crimes. Explain them.</s>Ms. BARBARA BECNEL (Editor, "Blue Rage, Black Redemption"): Okay. He was convicted in 1981 of committing four murders during two robberies that occurred in 1979. And so he said right up until the, literally the day and the hour that he died - an hour before he died, I was talking to him on the phone - and he said, he did not commit these crimes. But - so that is what he said. And he - in his book, he talks about how the people who are oppositional to him say that he didn't deserve clemency or that he couldn't possibly be redeemed because he did not acknowledged and apologized for those crimes. And he says, in the book, it would be cowardly for him to confess to something he didn't do.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So Barbara, you were also left with some of his words that he left for the world before he died. Let's take a listen to one of them.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Mr. STANLEY "TOOKIE" WILLIAMS (Co-founder, Crips): My apology firmly goes out to all of the grieving mothers who have lost a loved one through street violence. For many years, I have shouldered the heavy encumber of this madness that perpetuates your sorrow. Your suffering has not gone unnoticed. I acknowledged it. I feel it. With humility, I express my deepest remorse for each of you for having help to create this bloody and violent legacy.</s>Ms. BARBARA BECNEL (Editor, "Blue Rage, Black Redemption"): Well, that message, Stan wanted the prisoners of San Quentin to hear, and the prison authorities would not allow it to be played, so I appreciate this opportunity because of those prisoners do listen to NPR. And though it's two and a half years after the fact, they can still benefit from his message.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Towards the end of his book, the very end, he talks about being free in spirit, if not in body. And he was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize multiple times. What do you think his legacy is?</s>Ms. BARBARA BECNEL (Editor, "Blue Rage, Black Redemption"): I think his legacy is several fold. One, he did end up being an anti-gang activist and a peacemaker over the last 13 or 14 years of his life. And it's really made a difference. For example, the day after his memorial service, a handful of Crips said the following - the governor wouldn't give my homey a clemency, but we have the power to give each other clemency by stopping the killing of each other.</s>Ms. BARBARA BECNEL (Editor, "Blue Rage, Black Redemption"): They formed a cease-fire committee. And now, two years later, it's about 250 Crip leaders strong and they have - those 250 Crip factions or sets have quit killing each other and the goal is to expand it to Bloods, and the goal is to ultimately expand it to Latino gangs in South Central and throughout the nation.</s>Ms. BARBARA BECNEL (Editor, "Blue Rage, Black Redemption"): His other legacy is a legacy of promoting literacy, because, for him, in terms of his own redemption or process of redemption, it really began in earnest when one of the prison chaplains brought him a dictionary. And with that dictionary, he learned the words that he needed to understand in order to read books and history books and black history books and that really changed his life. Because what he learned was that the black heroes were ordinary people who have prepared themselves and committed themselves to do extraordinary things. And that - it occurred to him, okay, I'm ordinary and I can work hard and I could reach out and do some extraordinary things.</s>Ms. BARBARA BECNEL (Editor, "Blue Rage, Black Redemption"): He also left me to edit about five or six more books, which I will edit and release in - over the next three to five years.</s>Ms. BARBARA BECNEL (Editor, "Blue Rage, Black Redemption"): And then lastly, his legacy is one of an activist legacy. The fact that the state of California largely, because of what happened to him, there's a de facto moratorium on executions here and now the Supreme Court has picked it up. You know, he may have succeeded ultimately in unraveling the death penalty in this country. At least, that's my hope and that certainly would have been his.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Barbara, thank you so much.</s>Ms. BARBARA BECNEL (Editor, "Blue Rage, Black Redemption"): Thank you for allowing me to share what I experienced and what I've learned. Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Barbara Becnel edited and wrote the epilogue for "Blue Rage, Black Redemption." That's the newly published memoir by Stanley "Tookie" Williams.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And one quick note. A research shows that California currently does have a de facto moratorium on the death penalty. The state of California is currently looking into the constitutionality of current lethal injection procedures.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That's our show for today. And thank you for sharing your time with us. To listen to the show or subscribe to our podcast, visit our Web site, nprnewsandnotes.org. That's no spaces. Just nprnewsandnores.org. To join the conversation or sign up for our newsletter, visit our blog, nprnewsandviews.org.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: NEWS & NOTES was created by NPR News and the African-American Public Radio Consortium.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya. This is NEWS & NOTES.

News & Notes Web producer Geoffrey Bennett talks to Farai Chideya about the stories making the rounds on our blog, "News & Views," offers some online travel tips, and explains the Web's version of Black Friday.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: A new report shows hate crimes on the rise. And Geoffrey Bennett is the Web producer for NEWS & NOTES. He joins me now to talk about this and more. Hey, Geoffrey.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Hey, what's up, Farai?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, there's this report out this week from the FBI. It says that hate crimes rose last year; that racial prejudice accounts for more than half of those crimes. I see it's a hot topic on our blog, so what are folks writing about it?</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Yeah. According to that report, incidences of hate crimes are up by 8 percent in 2006. Now, one of our readers, Paul Murray-Smarten(ph) wrote: The increase intuitively make sense. It would go with the increasingly divisive tone of public discourse these days, if actions tend to follow words.</s>Another reader who goes by the handle C wrote: History has taught that during bad or stressful times people get scared. As our economic times get worse, proportionately, these crimes will also.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, on the show last week, we also covered a poll about African-Americans and racial identity. It was released by the Pew Research Center. So how did people react to that one?</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Right. There was a lot of stats in that report, which was said to have found the values gap in black America divided by class, our friend Mojo Adurinde(ph) posted a comment that reads: Part of the poll seems too broad in analysis to really be conclusive, but I do agree on the part that blacks have lost confidence in leaders within the community, like the NAACP not having new and impactful ways to reach the younger generation.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Another reader named Lyon(ph) didn't get what all the fuss was about. He wrote: Education and economics have always played a major role in evolving social groups. It's only natural that educated black folks who developed a sense of the world grew tired of the inner city black box. So that conversation is still ongoing.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So like millions of people, I will be traveling today - the busiest travel date of the year. Is there any help on the Web for weary travelers?</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: We have folks who are driving who check sites like BeatTheTraffic.com that give real-time views of traffic congestion, and sites like Google Maps and Yahoo! Maps, do that as well. People who are braving the airports should, of course, check their respective airline Web sites to check for flight delays, and the Web site flyfaa.gov can give you real-time information about backups at your local airport.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: And if you're not in front of the computer, you can do what I do: I text Google at no additional cost. You enter the flight delay - you enter the flight number and the airline name and send it to 46645 or G-O-O-G-L, Googl, and a couple of seconds, you get a text back with all you need to know.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Wow. All right. Well, finally, this Friday, retailers across the country will be offering up doorbuster deals in order to draw people in. There's something similar on the Web, right?</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Yeah, it's called Cyber Monday. It's the Monday following Black Friday, and folks who want to avoid the crowds can find great deals online. Shop.org., it's a site that studies retailing trends, says 75 percent of Web retailers are going to offer deals next week and there's - their Web site cybermonday.com that lists some of them. And so all the Web sites I mentioned can be found on our blog, News & Views.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right. Well, Geoffrey, thanks a lot.</s>GEOFFREY BENNETT: Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Geoffrey Bennett is the Web producer for NEWS & NOTES, and he joined me in our studios at NPR West.

Holidays are often the building blocks of our memories. Our regular News & Notes contributors share their favorite Thanksgiving memories. We hear from Betty Baye, Robert Traynham, Julianne Malveaux, Jeff Obafemi Carr, Allison Samuels, William C. Rhoden, Patrice Gaines and Ron Christie.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Holidays are often the building blocks of our memories. We asked some of our regular contributors to share their favorite Thanksgiving Day moments.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: First, here's political analyst Robert Traynham.</s>Mr. ROBERT TRAYNHAM (Political Analyst): Sitting down with my family on Thanksgiving Day with the football game on in the background, laughing, joking, eating way too much food, and really just reflecting on what family really means and love and friendship and respect. You know, Thanksgiving for me is a period of time where you sit back and reflect, not only about your life, but also about what family means and what love means. And so, that's what I'm going to be doing, is really just spending some good quality time and making sure that my family members know that I deeply care for them a lot.</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Economist): There's a large extended family of people who come to Winston Salem, North Carolina to celebrate Thanksgiving with Dr. Maya Angelou, and I'm privileged to be part of that extended family. That will be how I'm spending Thanksgiving and looking forward to just a warm, wonderful reunion with so many people who've been so important in my life.</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Economist): I have one memory that I enjoy about 10 years ago when I did my first Thanksgiving dinner at my home and had a tableful of people, and it actually turned out quite well. I was a little bit surprised given my culinary skills, but I have a picture, and I couldn't even put the year on it. We were just all sort of sitting there, kicking back, every body, really friendly conversation, just really appreciating the value of family.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: that was our economics maven Julianne Malveaux.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And here's essayist Jeff Obafemi Carr.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Author): There was this one Thanksgiving holiday that we all decided to go and visit in Columbus, Georgia with some of my mom's relatives - a really small community, small neighborhood, not much to do, so me and some of the older cousins and my brother-in-law, we started walking through the neighborhood, and we saw a basketball court. So, of course, we went over to play basketball and there were a bunch of teenage boys there thinking they were Michael Jordan.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Author): So, of course, they see the old cats coming and they want to challenge us to play a game of basketball. So we said, well, sure thing. So we lined up on either side and started playing basketball. And what do you know, we whipped the crap out of those kids. So they got angry and they said, no, you can't leave; you've got to play us again. And we played them again; we played them two more times, and we beat them. And they didn't realize it's because each one of them was trying to show off their basketball skills and we were setting picks and boxing out and doing things that old, slow guys do when they have to learn a game of basketball against kids, so we beat them soundly. And as we limped back to the house feeling full of pride, we just remembered that that was a great day when the old guys won. So we had a big dinner and we all went to sleep, and it's probably one of the best Thanksgivings I've had.</s>Ms. ALLISON SAMUELS (Correspondent, Newsweek): It's funny, my favorite Thanksgiving Day memory is not really - it's on Thanksgiving, but it really is with my grandmother. On Thanksgiving Day, they - she always wanted us, after dinner, after the turkey, after we were full, to go upstairs in the attic and get down Mary, Jesus and Joseph. That was her thing. That as soon as Thanksgiving, you know, dinner was over, we had to go up and get those, you know, plastic, sort of models of Mary, Jesus and Joseph, so we could set them up because she wanted all that time for it to be out in her yard.</s>Ms. ALLISON SAMUELS (Correspondent, Newsweek): So that that was like this ritual that we had to go and prepare for Christmas right after Thanksgiving dinner. So she gave no time to Thanksgiving. It was like, okay, we ate the turkey; it's done. Let's move on to Christmas now.</s>Ms. ALLISON SAMUELS (Correspondent, Newsweek): So that's my favorite memory because I love the little, you know, the little models of Joseph and Mary and Jesus. I love them; I thought they were so gorgeous, so that's why I would be the first one upstairs, you know, to sort of get them down.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That was Allison Samuels, our entertainment contributor.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Sometimes, family meals mark a rite of passage. Here's essayist Patrice Gaines.</s>Ms. PATRICE GAINES (Former Reporter, Washington Post): When I was 12 years old, I was moved from the children's table to the adult table. I think it was because there were more children than chairs at the card table, which was the children's table. But I took the move to mean I had matured; that I was ready to sit with my parents and grandparents and other visiting adults.</s>Ms. PATRICE GAINES (Former Reporter, Washington Post): Mr. WILLIAM C. RHODEN (Columnist, New York Times): My favorite Thanksgiving memory is sitting in my grandmother's house in Harvey, Illinois with all my, like, 15, you know, relatives or brothers and sisters, eating Thanksgiving dinner, and then not having to clean up afterwards.</s>Ms. PATRICE GAINES (Former Reporter, Washington Post): I think I'm going to spend this Thanksgiving Day with my 83-year-old father and mother in Las Vegas.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Vegas, huh? That was our sports guru William C. Rhoden.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: For political analyst Ron Christie, the best thing about Thanksgiving was the way it brought generations together.</s>Mr. RON CHRISTIE (Political Analyst): Without question it has to be back when I was in high school in California. My grandparents are both in their mid-90s now and they live Valdosta, Georgia, and they really don't like to travel. But that particular year, my folks were able to convince them to jump on an airplane, and they came out, and they had Thanksgiving dinner at our house, along with my brother and my parents and my uncle and his family. And it was just neat having our extended and our close in family under one roof at one time and just staying up and laughing, and, without question, my happiest Thanksgiving Day memory.</s>Ms. BETTY BAYE (Reproter, The Courier-Journal): My sweetest, sweetest Thanksgiving memory is the night before Thanksgiving, sitting in the kitchen with my mom. It was a very small kitchen and a little eating area. And mom and I would sit at our table, and my job, primarily, was to pull the edges off the bread for my mother's dressing. My mother made this homemade stuffing, no stovetop, homemade stuffing, and I would just sit there with her. But what was really sweet about it was that's when we would really talk, and it would go on until late in the night. My sisters were in bed. My father might have been out somewhere with his friends, but mom and I would just sit in that hot, little kitchen talking. And sometimes we'd get so hot that we had this big stone that we would sit in our door to keep the door open to bring a breeze in. And it might be 2:00 in the morning, and mom and I would just sit and talk and prepare the meal and break the eggs and, you know, just get ready for dinner.</s>Ms. BETTY BAYE (Reproter, The Courier-Journal): And I really, really miss that. I miss my mother so terribly. She was my best friend in the whole world. And Thanksgivings are just not the same since mom's been gone, but I do have that sweet memory of the two of us - just giggling and laughing and getting ready for dinner.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That was commentator Betty Baye bringing us home.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We've all got stories to share. This time, we've heard from NEWS & NOTES contributors Robert Traynham, Julianne Malveaux, Jeff Obafemi Carr, Allison Samuels, William C. Rhoden, Patrice Gaines, Ron Christie and Betty Baye.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That's our show for today. Thank you for sharing your time with us.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: To listen to the show or subscribe to our podcast, visit our Web site, nprnewsandnotes.org - no spaces, just nprnewsandnotes.org. To join the conversation or sign up for our newsletter, visit our blog at nprnewsandviews.org.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: NEWS & NOTES was created by NPR News and the African-American Public Radio Consortium.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Tomorrow, new music from the Sounds of Blackness.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Happy Thanksgiving. I'm Farai Chideya. This is NEWS & NOTES.

Former George W. Bush speechwriter David Frum says John McCain's major speech on Iraq was a "perfect document," but its impact was dulled by a less-than-powerful delivery. Frum, a American Enterprise Institute fellow and columnist for the National Review Online, also discusses a Clinton-Obama ticket.

ALEX CHADWICK, host: This is Day to Day. I'm Alex Chadwick.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: I'm Madeleine Brand.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: In a few minutes, writer Pete Hamill remembers the last day of his friend Robert F. Kennedy.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: First, John McCain, yes, John McCain - the other presidential candidate. He gave a major speech last night. That's what his campaign called it. He was in the city of New Orleans. Here he is.</s>Senator JOHN MCCAIN (Republican, Arizona): I strongly disagreed with the Bush administration's mismanagement of the war in Iraq. I called for the change in strategy. I called for the change in strategy that is now, at last, succeeding, where the previous strategy had failed miserably.</s>Senator JOHN MCCAIN (Republican, Arizona): I was criticized. I was criticized for doing so by Republicans. I was criticized by Democrats. I was criticized by the press. But I don't answer to them. I answer to you.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: John McCain, the candidate of change but the right kind of change, he said last night. Former presidential speechwriter David Frum joins us by phone in Barcelona, where he is today. David, what did you think of that speech?</s>Mr. DAVID FRUM (Columnist, National Review): Well, the McCain speech as a document was just terrific. It hit every point that John McCain needed to hit. And it did something very subtle. While paying lots of compliments to Barack Obama personally, it dealt with the age issue that Obama subtlety raises against John McCain all the time by complimenting him on his half century of service to the country. John McCain raised it by saying, well, Barack Obama may be young, but his ideas are old.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: I heard him say, it's surprising to hear a young man turn to the past for failed ideas.</s>Mr. DAVID FRUM (Columnist, National Review): Exactly. Now, the only thing that could have made the speech better is if we lived in an age where people absorbed political oratory from the newspaper because when you read the speech, it's just a perfect document. Unfortunately, we've invented radio and television and people hear it and see it, and it was not delivered with the kind of power and conviction that a speech so powerful and conviction-filled ought to have been delivered with.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: So as you look ahead at the campaign, how is that going to play into things? Senator McCain is a - enormously sympathetic political figure for many, many Americans, but as an orator, as someone who has to get up and excite a crowd, he's not a match as a candidate for Senator Obama.</s>Mr. DAVID FRUM (Columnist, National Review): No, but he really doesn't need to be. I mean, I have a very simple map of what I think is happening in this election. The country is ready for a change and is ready to sweep out the incumbent party, the Republicans, if the alternative is acceptable. And the great question over the rest of the election is, is the alternative acceptable? And John McCain is John McCain. He is very much a known quantity.</s>Mr. DAVID FRUM (Columnist, National Review): They know he was right about the war, and they know he got the tactics right. The surge was his idea. They know he is not on top of this economic issue and that's a problem, but he's known, and they respect his integrity and his record. Now you have this other candidate who is much less known and then you have this third force, Hillary Clinton, who I thought last night was sort of vowing to conduct a guerilla warfare campaign - we've lost the main battles, but I'm going to lead my band of party fighters up in to the hills and the war continues. And depending on how destructive she is, she may play a major part in convincing the country that the alternative to the incumbent is unacceptable, or at least impossible.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: You write in the National Review online today that she may be campaigning for the vice presidency and if she is, that Senator Obama would find it almost impossible to say no, but very inadvisable to say yes.</s>Mr. DAVID FRUM (Columnist, National Review): Look, Mitt Romney is campaigning for the vice presidency. He's going around the country. He's making speeches. He's saying nice things about John McCain. Hillary Clinton is doing a little bit more than that. She's got 2,000 delegates or thereabouts. She is delivering a speech - I'm not giving up. Now, the question she is posing to Obama is, nice little convention you are going to have there in Denver, it would be a true misfortune if it were to be ruined by a whole series of challenges over credentials of Michigan and Florida.</s>Mr. DAVID FRUM (Columnist, National Review): I mean, I could turn this thing into the worst convention since the Democratic convention of 1968. Would you like me to do that? If not, you'd better think about ways to make me happy. This is not campaigning for the vice presidency. This is putting a pistol to the man's head and - so, it's not an abstract question for Obama.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: You know, this strikes me, David, we called you to talk about John McCain, and here we are still talking about Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. Maybe if they go on, Senator McCain will never get any attention and it will just be them.</s>Mr. DAVID FRUM (Columnist, National Review): But this election really is about them. I really do think there is very little the Republicans can do to win this election. But there is a great deal the Democrats can do to lose it and so far, they are doing many of those things.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: David Frum, a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, and he writes a column for National Review online. David, thank you again.</s>Mr. DAVID FRUM (Columnist, National Review): Thank you.

David Folkenflik looks at how television and newspapers covered the Democratic presidential race and how the story continues to play out. On Tuesday night, some networks focused on the historical angle, others looked ahead to the contest in the general election.

ALEX CHADWICK, host: Back now with Day to Day. If, as the saying goes, journalism is the first draft of history, you watched it being drafted last night as the media focused on the conclusion of the primary season. NPR's David Folkenflik is with us from New York. David, what about the TV networks watching Barack Obama's moment approach?</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK: It felt a little bit like the countdown to New Year's in 2000 where, you know, you knew what was going to happen, you knew roughly when it would happen, and you were sort of watching it tick downward. You saw slightly different counts on the different networks. Fox News, I believe relying on the Associated Press, called it pretty early. But if you watched MSNBC and CNN, they both had slightly different delegate countdowns. And then as somebody else would announce either on their air or throw out a statement you know, that they had switched support or were coming out for Senator Obama, suddenly you'd see the breaking news (unintelligible) appear, and they would say hey, we're getting that much closer. It was also interesting to see a little bit of difference in tones.</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK: If you turned on CNN, you saw a lot of the minutia of the politicking and positioning. MSNBC might have emphasized slightly more of the notion of this being a historic moment. Fox News commentators were more quickly pivoting to the notion of well, in the general election, how is Senator Obama going to be able to dispel these unsavory associations, to shed this taint that may have somehow accompanied - from the controversies about his former pastor. And so it was interesting to see the slightly different aspects play out.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: It was really the Associated Press, you mentioned them earlier, that set the tone for the day.</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK: Yeah, well, and this was a very interesting thing. It's a little glimmer of an insight into how the media works. A little before 11 o'clock, about 10:50 or so, the Associated Press put out a bulletin, and it started "Officials say Hillary Rodham Clinton will acknowledge tonight that Barack Obama has the delegates for the nomination."</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK: And we like to say in the news business, not so much. If you watched her speech, she didn't do that at all. The AP's language sort of shifted over the course of the day. Late in the day, they reported that she'd changed her mind. That she wouldn't be doing that. And then in fact, there was almost instant pushback from some of her most senior aides, like Harold Ickes and Terry McAuliffe. The AP really is - you know - is the wire that serves almost every major media outlet in the country. It really set the tone in the scramble, making it even tougher for the Clinton camp to claim that there was any suspense in what was going to happen.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: What about today as you go forward?</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK: Well, I think it's worth taking a moment. You know, I was born in 1969. On my 18th birthday, my grandfather Jack Pearlstein (ph) gave me a gift and he told me, imagine something impossible. And I couldn't fathom what he was getting at. Well, I opened the present and it was a copy of the New York Times from the day man walked on the moon. I realized for him this was impossible. For me, it was something I took almost a little bit for granted.</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK: If you look at a lot of headlines today, you think of the Chicago Tribune, Obama's home paper, of course. But it - the headline is "Obama Makes History." And the subhead on one of the stories was "It Would Not Have Been Possible 40 Years Ago." It is sort of a moment. Senator Clinton did not concede the nomination, it's important to acknowledge that, but nonetheless, he is over the tipping point. And I think there's probably a lot of parents and a lot of grandparents who, whatever one thinks of Senator Obama, whether he turns out to be a successful candidate - or should he win, a successful president. A lot of people may well save their newspapers this morning with that kind of historic headline my grandfather gave me those years ago.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: David Folkenflik covers news and the media for NPR. David, thank you.</s>DAVID FOLKENFLIK: You bet.

We continue the conversation about ways to keep your appetite in check and your calories low during Thanksgiving dinner. Joining in are fitness guru Ravenna Brock, Beverly Arnold — a grandmother living in Detroit — and Astrid Chinn, a new mother living in Washington, D.C.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya, and this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We're talking about diet in the holidays with Beverly Arnold from Detroit. She's her family's Thanksgiving Day cook but has made a commitment to staying fit that doesn't allow her to eat much of what she actually cooks. NEWS & NOTES' health and fitness guru, nutritionist Dr. Rovenia Brock, otherwise known as Dr. Ro, and her client, Astrid Chinn. She plans to maintain a healthy diet even with all the temptation that comes with the Thanksgiving Day feast.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Welcome back, ladies.</s>Dr. BROCK: It's a pleasure.</s>Ms. ARNOLD: Yes, it is.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, Astrid, after hearing about Beverly's tremendous success at losing a hundred pounds, does that give you more strength to do what you're doing, which is also extremely hard even though it's less weight?</s>Ms. ASTRID CHINN: Yes. Yes. The weight doesn't matter. It's a very hard struggle.</s>Ms. ARNOLD: Yes, it is.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, having two children at this point, Astrid, has that changed how you have to deal with food, because kids like what kids like, which often involves cheese.</s>Ms. ASTRID CHINN: Well, I tried to introduce to them different foods and healthy varieties, so they really won't be able to miss what they haven't had.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you really are trying to train them from an early age?</s>Ms. ASTRID CHINN: Yes. Yes. My 6-year-old asks for certain green vegetables. He loves broccoli and other things, so he doesn't know a lot about fast food.</s>Dr. BROCK: Oh, good.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, Dr. Ro, it sounds like that's the perfect way to really help raise your kids, is to raise them in an environment where they like healthful foods to begin with.</s>Dr. BROCK: Well, yeah. I mean, kids have to see to be, so it's very difficult for you to instill in your child that it's important or good for you to eat broccoli if, in fact, you're not serving it at home. You know, we've talked about that very thing on this program, so that's one thing.</s>Dr. BROCK: But the other thing is you have to also teach them the importance of how to make those choices even in a tight situation. So, if you happen to be outside the home, they have to know how to choose healthy there, too. I think the important thing is that when you set a good example and when you teach them about choices - food and lifestyle choices - that are going to work for them rather than against them, there's a better chance that they're going to stick to those even when they're not in your care, when they're outside of your view.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Let's go back to something on adult's plates, at least some adults. Alcohol - what does that do to how you eat, how you metabolize food if that's part of your Thanksgiving Day feast - your holiday feast?</s>Dr. BROCK: Well, you know, it's not - you never - the second glass of wine is never going to be as good as the first. So, just bear that in mind. Also know that there are seven calories per gram of alcohol in every serving. So it is not a free as you would - if you would. It's not a free beverage, so - it's not a calorie-free beverage. So, given that you're never going to achieve the feeling that you enjoyed with the first glass, after that, you might want to put the cork back in the burgundy.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: How do you pick yourselves up? I mean, Beverly, even you, although you've had a surgery, you probably had moments of weakness. If you do something that you don't consider perfect, how do you pick yourself up?</s>Ms. ARNOLD: You know, and I do give in to cravings at times. What I found that - sometimes - one day, I'd have such a horrible craving for ice cream, and I'm not a sweet eater. I don't care that much for ice cream, but I got a little container of ice cream, I eat two teaspoons of it just to taste it, and put it back in the freezer. When my grandchildren came, I gave it to them. But when I mess up, I have to get right back on track immediately.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That's will power.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Astrid, what about you?</s>Ms. ASTRID CHINN: I try to get in a little extra exercise…</s>Ms. ARNOLD: Yeah.</s>Ms. ASTRID CHINN: …playing games with the kids on the yard, and maybe go hit some balls at the golf course with the kids, and just being out with them and having fun with them and hearing them laugh; that picks me up.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Dr. Ro, how do you - either for yourself or for your clients - go ahead and lift up after you've had a little slide?</s>Dr. BROCK: Well, you know, I have to do it for myself, too, every day. Every day that I wake up, I'm in a battle with myself despite the fact that I know all this stuff and I could certainly help other people. But the thing that works best for me, and I hope for my clients - Astrid included - is that, as Beverly had said in so many other words, I remind myself that it is a process. It is a process, and every - every day that you get to open your eyes and put your feet on the floor, it is, in fact, a new opportunity to get it right.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right, ladies.</s>Ms. ARNOLD: Well said.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We're going to have to end it right there. Thank you so much.</s>Ms. ASTRID CHINN: Thank you.</s>Ms. ARNOLD: Thank you.</s>Dr. BROCK: Happy Thanksgiving.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yes, happy Thanksgiving.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We've been talking with nutritionist Rovenia Brock, the author of "DR. Ro's 10 Secrets to Living Healthy;" her client Astrid Chinn, a mother of two living in the Washington, D.C. area; and Beverly Arnold, a mother and grandmother and Thanksgiving's Day cook.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Hope everyone enjoys the day.

United Airlines announces plans to lay off about 1,000 workers and ground some planes. And for the first time in 17 years, imported compact cars last month outsold Ford F-series pickups. Marketplace's Bob Moon discusses the sea change in the U.S. economy.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: From NPR News, this is Day to Day.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Finally, some relief from those relentless rise in oil prices. The price of a barrel of crude is now more than $10 below last month's record highs, but some industries are finding that the damage has already been done. They're making some big changes in the way they do business. Joining us now is Marketplace's Bob Moon. Bob, first, why are oil prices falling now?</s>BOB MOON: Well, hallelujah, Madeleine, crude does keep dropping. It's been trading at around $122 a barrel today. Compare that to the record high we saw just two weeks ago, when oil hit a record of $135.09a barrel. Some of this is driven by signals from the Fed, that it's through cutting interest rates for now. That could help shore up the value of the dollar, and that could help stabilize oil prices since most oil is priced in dollars.</s>BOB MOON: But the big factor in today's price decline is the latest word that we've gotten from the Energy Department on gasoline demand. It says that there was a sharp fall-off last week, and demand's been declining over the past four weeks, really, by almost one and a half percent. That's helped push gasoline inventories up by almost 3 million barrels. Now that's more than three times the increase than analysts were generally expecting.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So, if there is more gas, does that mean that the prices will go down?</s>BOB MOON: Well, not necessarily right away. The average price for regular gas right now across the country has now hit a record of 3.98 a gallon. Many analysts think that's likely to hit four bucks in the coming days. Of course here in California, we're already paying well over that amount.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So, what about these problems that the high oil prices are causing for certain businesses? What's happening?</s>BOB MOON: Well, the airline industry is really struggling with the cost of doing business and just today, we've gotten word from United that they're going to make aggressive moves to cope with fuel prices. They are cutting 1,100 more jobs, and United is going to ground 70 more of its fuel guzzlers. That means it's mothballing its entire fleet now of 94 Boeing 737s along with six 747s. And United's going to be cutting its mainline domestic capacity by up to 18 percent in the next year. And then move over to the auto industry. another sign of these belt-tightening times. The Ford F -series pick-up truck, it's been the best-selling vehicle in America for the past 17 years. Well, last month, it wasn't. The Honda Civic and the Accord and Toyota's Camry and Corolla all outsold Ford's pick-up. And then just yesterday, GM said it would be closing down some SUV plants. It's retooling to meet shifting consumer demands.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So, is this temporary or long term, do you think, these changes?</s>BOB MOON: Well, analysts and industry officials are telling us that these are fundamental changes in the ways these companies are going to be doing business. Here's how one auto market analyst puts it. He says he's never known the market to change this much, this quickly, in his lifetime.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Wow. Thank you, Bob. Bob Moon of Public Radio's daily business show, Marketplace.

We all know Thanksgiving is supposed to be a time of family fellowship. But, some see Turkey Day and other holidays as grounds to spark or rekindle a family feud. So how can you have a drama-free holiday? We posed that question to Karen Hudson — co-author of The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times — and La Joyce Brookshire, author of the soon-to-be-released Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: From NPR News, this is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We all know Thanksgiving is supposed to be a time of family fellowship. But some see Turkey Day and other holidays as grounds to spark or rekindle a family feud. Sibling rivalry, ex-spouses and the nutty uncle who packs food to go before dinner begins - all problems that can spoil the fun. So how can you have a drama-free holiday? Is there such a thing?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Joining us to give a few pointers are Karen Hudson, co-author of "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times," and LaJoyce Brookshire. She's a minister, a naturopathic doctor and author of upcoming "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love."</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Welcome ladies.</s>Ms. KAREN HUDSON (Co-Author, "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times"): Thank you.</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): Thank you for having me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, La Joyce, you wrote the novel "Soul Food" and in the film, we see a lot of family drama. You also counseled people on their relationships. So why are the holidays such a stressful time?</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): Well, I think because it forces us to confront things that we don't want to. And it starts to build a month before the dread, the fearfulness, the, you know, have I lost enough weight, the do I look like I'm doing all right enough? You know, those kinds of things are stressors that press on us and cause us not to enjoy the holiday as much as we should because these are the things that we needed to probably confront even prior to the holiday, but we have not.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Is any of your family in "Soul Food"?</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): Oh yeah.</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I enjoyed family gatherings. In my family, I would never run from the table when we had the tourist conversation. You know, they always let me stick around for some reason. And I got to learn a lot about life. And when cousin Sheila(ph) had her problems and when cousin Sheila came around, I knew that we were going to, A, air dirty laundry and solve her problems. But what somebody would ultimately end up doing is - after the wisdom flew around the table, with all the gray hairs, then someone will go get the Bible to see what God had to say about it. So that's how all of the problems were solved in our family.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Karen, you may have a slightly different solution. "Basic Black," the book that you wrote - when you think about the book that you wrote, trying to bring a little bit of order to the modern chaos around manners, how does that apply during the holidays? Is it any tougher, any different?</s>Ms. KAREN HUDSON (Co-Author, "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times"): Well, I think it's tougher because the holidays represent the best and the worst of our childhood. It's all the food that we were happy to eat, and everybody comes home for, you know, grandma's sweet potato pies and somebody's macaroni and cheese. But it also has all the heartache and the things you remember about how somebody treated you when you were a child, and now you're an adult and you're coming home on a different kind of atmosphere. I come home a very different experience because I'm blessed to be a third generation living in the same town where the rest of my family is. So I see them on a regular basis. And I do not have one holiday where there was ever drama at the table.</s>Ms. KAREN HUDSON (Co-Author, "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times"): And perhaps that is because we were raised to care ourselves, like our grandmother was looking over our shoulder. As long as we did that…</s>Ms. KAREN HUDSON (Co-Author, "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times"): It was a pretty calm day.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So what does that mean to you to have a civil and civilized holiday? What constitutes that?</s>Ms. KAREN HUDSON (Co-Author, "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times"): A lot of good food and, just, you know, even though I see my family on a regular basis. It's a time of celebration. And particularly, Thanksgiving is a time where you really do take note of what you're thankful for. And I think that one of the other things that I firmly believe is that, you know, we do need to take the commercialism out of the holiday season. I think that adds to a lot of the angst and a lot of the stress. You know, can I buy a good enough present? Do I get something for everybody? Is somebody going to buy me something? Am I going to ditch what they got me? But the other part of it for me is Christmas Day is my mother's birthday. So…</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Mine too.</s>Ms. KAREN HUDSON (Co-Author, "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times"): Really? Wow. And so, you know, we look at it a different kind of way. It is really a time of celebration.</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): Karen brought up something poignant, if I may interject, that you think about your treatment from childhood, which goes back to what I said about dealing with things that we have yet to confront, and that if you are really carrying something from childhood that Uncle Jimmy(ph) did to you that you have yet to confront and you dread going to Thanksgiving dinner because you know Uncle Jimmy(ph) will be there, it's time to confront it and let it go.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: But in what circumstances do you do which? I'm going to ask both of you that. LaJoyce, when is it appropriate, you think, to confront something? Is it…</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): Not at the dinner table.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Right.</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): I think that it's something - if it's something that comes up at every holiday it's obviously something that troubles you, and I think that it's maybe Uncle Jimmy needs a letter if you can't discuss it. Maybe Aunt Suzie(ph) needs to have a phone call and, you know, and then you could scream your guts out one on one without any other interaction or anyone else around.</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): Or maybe you can do it civilly and invite them out for a meal on neutral turf so that, you know, you're not at either person's house. However, you choose to do it, but you know, those are the enemies of our past that allow - don't allow us to move forward.</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): And so I would like for my child and my husband to have a relationship with Uncle Jimmy, but every time somebody mentions them, I can't. You know, so I think that those are the things also that help stop us from having a happy Thanksgiving and something to be thankful for and getting together with family be they far or near.</s>Ms. KAREN HUDSON (Co-Author, "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times"): You know, I have to take issue with the - whatever it was - scream your guts out with Aunty so and so. I don't ever think that solves anything. And I think that what we have to be mindful of, I think, your very own point when you talk about this and things we have to deal with. I think we have to deal with them with ourselves first before we ever confront - if that's the right term - the offending family member. And my thing is, don't do it during the holidays.</s>Ms. KAREN HUDSON (Co-Author, "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times"): There are 11, 12 other months that, you know, we can look at things. (Unintelligible) on Independence Day. Write that letter then. You know, call them, invite them to dinner, whatever you have to do - and particularly if you're not on the same city. And you have a concern about your children, And particularly now they're in the same city and you have a concern about your children particularly if it's a concern that might have to do with some prior abuse or something like that, you know, then you distance yourself a different kind of way.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We've had conversations during the course of this series on the family about when you just have to burn the bridges behind you. LaJoyce, I guess, on a personal level, you've had a very - you had a very difficult relationship with your former husband. You had to nurse him through an illness, and he had lied to you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Why don't you just tell us a little bit about that and did you burn the bridge behind you, or did you stay in touch with him?</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): Okay. Well, in 1990 I married a man who swept me off my feet and who came into my life like prince charming. And two years into the relationship, I discovered he had full-blown AIDS. And it wasn't until he was almost dead that I found out he knew he always had AIDS that he was always infected. I am victoriously negative. And - also, I didn't know until after he was dead that he was on the down low.</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): So, yes, I burned the bridges because, well, he died and, you know, I refused to allow him to strangle me from the grave. I refused to not forgive him because, obviously, he didn't know any better, and because I'm God's girl for real, and to be exposed to the virus multiple occasions and to not become infected, I am completely God's girl. And so in that I knew that I couldn't harbor on to un-forgiveness. Also in my work as a naturopathic doctor, I understand that un-forgiveness is the emotional component of cancer.</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): And so, it wasn't worth holding on to this piece of something from - for a dead man. So I also buried his family when I buried him, especially his sisters who knew that he was infected when they stood up in my wedding. So I forgive them and have watched their lives completely fall apart. And so there are a few people in his family who I have chosen to have relationship with. And it is very comforting and a nurturing relationship on both parties as we have. And we enjoy each - one another's company.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I bring this up for two reasons. One is because your upcoming book is on this topic, but secondly, when we think about holidays, we think about memories. And what do you do with the memories of the holidays that you spent with your former husband? Do you try to erase them? Do you just acknowledge them and move on?</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): Mm-hmm. I acknowledge them and move on. Because the holiday season for him was tumultuous, so he brought in those feelings. His uneasiness and his conflict that was unsettled in his family, he brought that in - with him into our relationship. See that's the part about teaming up and marrying someone who you know him but you don't know him.</s>Dr. LaJOYCE BROOKSHIRE (Naturopathic Doctor; Author "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love"): So all of those of things would have uncovered themselves if I would not have been in such a hurry to get to the altar if you will. We met and married within 11 months. So, you know, when you take the time to find out what a man's relationship is with his momma, you know, what his relationship with his sibling, and why do they have such a horrible, venomous relationship, and it's obviously because of family secrets, which ultimately steal, kill and destroy.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Let me go to you, Karen, your mother being born on Christmas day as mine was, and we celebrate every year, does that add a level of expectation to the holiday that weighs it down or does it lift it up and make it something different?</s>Ms. KAREN HUDSON (Co-Author, "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times"): Clearly, lifts it up. I think that when my mother after about 50 years said I'm not doing Christmas anymore so I inherited it. And every year, it's like how can I make it more special for mom. And mom grew up, you know, like your momma I'm sure never had a birthday party on her birthday with her friends. And my grandfather, my mother's father, just spoiled her rotten with the Christmas presents and the birthday presents. And when he passed, even though she was an adult, it was like, you know, the little kid in her came out. And so we go to great lengths to have a birthday cake to do all the things that she never had as a child.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, I want to share more about family stories, family wisdom and just plain good manners, but we have to take a break. Thank you so much for this beginning of the conversation.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We are talking with Karen Hudson, co-author of "The New Basic Black: Home Training for Modern Times," also with La Joyce Brookshire. She's a minister, naturopathic doctor and author of the upcoming "Faith Under Fire: Betrayed by a Thing Called Love."

From 2007's most influential people to the best gift ideas for the holiday season, our panel of entertainment reporters wrap up the year and get ready for 2008. Joining in are Angela Burt-Murray, editor-in-chief of Essence magazine; Bryan Monroe, vice president and editorial director of Ebony and Jet magazines; and Newsweek national correspondent Allison Samuels.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: From NPR News, this is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Today, we've got a special Reporter's Roundtable that's all about the holidays at the newsstands. Family, faith and gift giving are popular topics between the glossy covers of some of your favorite magazines.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: With me now, Angela Burt-Murray, editor-in-chief of Essence magazine; also, Newsweek's national correspondent Allison Samuels; and Bryan Monroe, vice president and editorial director of Ebony and Jet magazines.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Welcome folks.</s>Ms. ANGELA BURT-MURRAY (Editor-in-Chief, Essence): Hi. Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So as this year wraps up, one of the major themes for magazines is the most influential people of the year.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Angela, tell us how you're going to cover that at Essence.</s>Ms. ANGELA BURT-MURRAY (Editor-in-Chief, Essence): Well, we've put together our first annual influential list, which is really a roundup of not only the bold-faced names like politicians and celebrities and people like you'd expect to find on a list like this, but also the ordinary people in the African-American community who are doing extraordinary things. So the people that really got us to think in different ways this year. So it was a pleasure to put together this list to salute, again, the people that you would expect, and also some surprises.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Give me one of those surprises.</s>Ms. ANGELA BURT-MURRAY (Editor-in-Chief, Essence): Ah, I think one of my favorites on the list is a woman named Gina McCauley, who is the blogger who founded the site whataboutourdaughters.com. And she's basically started a grassroots campaign, challenging some of the images, the negative images that we see in the media as it relates to African-American women. And this year, she successfully lobbied advertisers to pull out of the show that BET was putting on the air, "Hot Ghetto Mess."</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: "Hot Ghetto Mess." Yeah.</s>Ms. ANGELA BURT-MURRAY (Editor-in-Chief, Essence): Yes.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We've had Gina on many times.</s>Ms. ANGELA BURT-MURRAY (Editor-in-Chief, Essence): Yes. Yes.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And she's one of our favorites.</s>Ms. ANGELA BURT-MURRAY (Editor-in-Chief, Essence): She's fascinating.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, Bryan, what about Ebony and Jet?</s>Mr. BRYAN MONROE (Vice President and Editorial Director, Ebony and Jet magazines): Well, you know, we've got our current issue on the stands, which have someone we've all been following for a while, Michael Jackson, on the cover. We'll talk about that a little bit later.</s>Mr. BRYAN MONROE (Vice President and Editorial Director, Ebony and Jet magazines): But inside, you know, we're looking at the holiday gifts and actually doing this in Ebony and in Jet magazine, and now on our Web site, ebonyjet.com, and specifically looking at technology - everything from GPS systems to flat screen TVs and trying to make the distinction between LCDs and plasmas, and why you should buy one and buy the other.</s>Mr. BRYAN MONROE (Vice President and Editorial Director, Ebony and Jet magazines): But probably, one of our most interesting packages this month has been about Africa, and it's called the Africa You Don't Know, where we really wanted to take an authentic look at the continent - and this was the beginning of an ongoing series throughout the year - and look at it beyond the issues we're all familiar with — poverty, violence, and things like that — and really looking at the almost normal regular sense of Africa, from kids playing to entertainment to booming issues with economics, and now the inclusion of China in the new economic development in many parts of Africa.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, Allison, at Newsweek, you guys have a most influential person of the year. What does Newsweek looks for when picking that person?</s>Ms. ALLISON SAMUELS (National Correspondent, Newsweek): Well, you know, it differs from year to year, but I think this year, because next year is such a, you know, huge political year, I think this year they're focusing very much on sort of who's going to have the most impact on the campaigns. And that doesn't have to necessarily be the person running. It could be their campaign director. It could be, you know, who's going to shape that campaign. And, I think, you know…</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Oprah? I want to think it's Oprah.</s>Ms. ALLISON SAMUELS (National Correspondent, Newsweek): Yeah, now - I know. I was just about to say that, I think, because Oprah is putting her hat in the ring. I think that, you know, she has a pretty good shot at that. I do think that.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you do you get to weigh in on this?</s>Ms. ALLISON SAMUELS (National Correspondent, Newsweek): We all get to weigh in on it. Now, whether they listen to us is a whole another thing. But we all do get a vote on, you know, sort of, you know, who would you suggest this year has — did you see as next's year's going to have the impact because that's the whole key for us. It's who's going to actually have that kind of impact for the next year. That's - they sort of call it who's next?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, I want to turn to matters of faith. Some publications look into matters of faith at the end of the year. It's a logical time to do that. And Angela, Essence is featuring an interview with Juanita Bynum.</s>Ms. ANGELA BURT-MURRAY (Editor-in-Chief, Essence): Yes.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Tell me a little bit about that, and why you decided to put her in the issue?</s>Ms. ANGELA BURT-MURRAY (Editor-in-Chief, Essence): Well, Juanita Bynum found herself thrust into the spotlight a couple of months ago, when she and her husband had an unfortunate altercation in a parking lot. And it really brought to ahead for the African-American community the conversation about domestic violence, and specifically as it relates to the church.</s>Ms. ANGELA BURT-MURRAY (Editor-in-Chief, Essence): Historically, the church has been loathed(ph) to tackle this very important issue, while statistically we know that African-American women are suffering a great deal in these relationships. So we felt it was important to sit down with Dr. Bynum and talk about her experience, but also hear the message that she wanted to share with women who might find themselves in similar situation. So it's a really, really important conversation.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I know that she has mentioned in the past that she really wants to make this part of her ministry. Did she expand on that?</s>Ms. ANGELA BURT-MURRAY (Editor-in-Chief, Essence): Right. Yes, absolutely. This is actually a two-part series that we're very proud to be presenting. The first part is in the December issue, and then she is actually the cover of the January issue, where she will then take that opportunity to talk about her new ministry and how she plans to go forward to help women who are in similar situation.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Allison, what does Newsweek have on tap in terms of faith?</s>Ms. ALLISON SAMUELS (National Correspondent, Newsweek): At this point, they haven't sort of decided what they want to do, but usually when they post it to the, you know, actual last issue of the year, they'll tackle some, you know, particularly interesting issue, whether it be like Mother Teresa's book that came out earlier this year where it talked about Mother Teresa sort of challenging her faith, you know, during the early years of her life. You know, they'll choose something like that to sort of, you know, focus on and sort of talk about what impact that have for the year in terms of, you know, faith and how people of faith actually handle that.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, Bryan, do you — do anything about Kwanzaa in addition to Christmas or any of the other religious holidays?</s>Mr. BRYAN MONROE (Vice President and Editorial Director, Ebony and Jet magazines): Well, actually we have a coverage of both Kwanzaa and other religious aspects to the holiday season. Kwanzaa is in our December issue. We take a very different look at it. We decided to test question why we celebrate or, in many cases, why we don't celebrate Kwanzaa, the confusion in the African-American community about what Kwanza is and what it's not, you know, that is not a religious holiday per se as much as a celebration of our heritage; and why for many African-Americans it's almost like we feel like we should celebrate it, but we really don't know why, and so most of us don't. And so we take a look at that. And then we go and look at sort of the other side of the coin with a very, very practical look at why and how to read the Bible.</s>Mr. BRYAN MONROE (Vice President and Editorial Director, Ebony and Jet magazines): Joy Benet takes a very hands-on, utilitarian guide to going chapter by chapter, book by book in the Bible on how to use it in your everyday life.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm going to stay with you, Brian, on favorite story. I know that right now, we're talking about wrapping up the year, but any time from January on, what was your favorite story that you covered or you helped put together this year?</s>Mr. BRYAN MONROE (Vice President and Editorial Director, Ebony and Jet magazines): Well, that's a big question. We've had a some really great issues this year from our Barack and Michelle issue in February, where we hit the stands a week before he announced, with a great profile on them as a couple to - in May, I got to sit down and do the hard duty of spending a day or so with Halle Berry. And, of course, our July issue that we've decided to take all the pictures off the cover and take a serious look at the language of disrespected black American.</s>Mr. BRYAN MONROE (Vice President and Editorial Director, Ebony and Jet magazines): But I think probably the one we're most excited about is the one that's on the stands right now with Michael Jackson. We've been working on that for the last eight or nine months to lay in it that exclusive interview. And we got him to open up about a bunch of things, as well as a look back at the 25th anniversary of "Thriller."</s>Mr. BRYAN MONROE (Vice President and Editorial Director, Ebony and Jet magazines): In spending three days with him, he is both complicated and in some ways not nearly as strange or as weird as people have painted him to be. And I think when readers both see the story in the magazine and also go online because we've put a lot of the audio clips from the interview up online, we've gotten reactions from all over the world — Finland, Germany, Tokyo — and overseas sales is just off the chain.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Angela, what about you? What was your favorite moment over the year?</s>Ms. ANGELA BURT-MURRAY (Editor-in-Chief, Essence): I think that, you know, it's been a really strong year for us, but I think I'm most proud about our political coverage this year. We've devoted unprecedented real estate and women's magazines to the conversation about the election. And we had interviews with Michelle Obama, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton. And we felt like it was important to do this because statistics have shown that in the next election, in the African-American community, African black women will cast six out of ten votes. So, you know, we're a very influential voting bloc this term, and it's really important that the candidates speak directly to the issues that black America wants addressed.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Allison, what about you?</s>Ms. ALLISON SAMUELS (National Correspondent, Newsweek): I guess, my favorite story this year was a conversation, well, actually, it was an interview that I sort of - that I had with both Holly Robinson Peete and Lilly Tartikoff whose husband, Brandon, was the head of NBC for many years. Both of them have children that are ill. Holly's son is autistic and Lilly's daughter was brain damaged in a car accident. And it was just very emotional, sitting there, listening to these two women who I had never met before talk about what it's like to be the mother of a child who is ill and who necessarily won't get better. I think it put a lot of things into perspective, but also it was just interesting to see two women - one African-American, one not - bond so, you know, so quickly, and so many shared experiences that they had gone through with their children.</s>Ms. ALLISON SAMUELS (National Correspondent, Newsweek): And I think it just sort of gave me a new look at just sort of, you know, what's important and what's not because these are women who said most parents want their children to go to Harvard. They think that's like an accomplishment. But for them, you know, Lilly Tartikoff said her daughter, just being able to raise her head for, like, five minutes at a time was a thing that made her day. And, I don't know, I just felt like, you know, that was just an important story for people to see because, I think, sometimes we do take a lot of those kind of things for granted.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right. Well, we are running out of time. I know that, Brian, you mentioned a little bit about gift giving. You're going to talk about technology. Angela and Allison, briefly, any gift advice in your magazines?</s>Ms. ALLISON SAMUELS (National Correspondent, Newsweek): I know for us, we're going to do a lot about the many programs where you can give back to Africa. You can, you know, give $50 to buy a goat for a woman in Kenya so she can feed her family. We're trying to do more things like that and not make them so materialistic. We're really trying to focus on gift giving to, you know, international countries.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Allison?</s>Ms. ALLISON SAMUELS (National Correspondent, Newsweek): Yes?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Oh, sorry, that was - I'm in confusion, people, excuse me.</s>Ms. ALLISON SAMUELS (National Correspondent, Newsweek): Okay.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Angela?</s>Ms. ANGELA BURT-MURRAY (Editor-in-Chief, Essence): Yeah, well, okay, I guess, we're the opposite of what's Newsweek covered in their gift-giving guide. We did go on the luxury side of things, and tried to put together some things that were just simply too beautiful to resist for women. So there's everything from handbags, and shoes, and fragrance, and furs and, you know, just a wonderful, a range of things, but also the service of the best places to shop online, the best catalogs, the best stores, and the best place to shop for children.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right. Well, Angela, Brian, Allison, thanks so much and happy holidays.</s>Ms. ALLISON SAMUELS (National Correspondent, Newsweek): Thank you.</s>Mr. BRYAN MONROE (Vice President and Editorial Director, Ebony and Jet magazines): Thank you.</s>Ms. ANGELA BURT-MURRAY (Editor-in-Chief, Essence): Thank you. Happy holidays. Bye-bye.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Angela Burt-Murray is editor-in-chief of Essence magazine, Allison Samuels is a national correspondent for Newsweek, and Brian Monroe is vice president and editorial director of Ebony and Jet magazines.

If you're planning to sit down to a big Thanksgiving meal, are you also ready for all those calories? Health and fitness guru Ravenna Brock talks about ways to keep your appetite in check and your calories low. Joining in are Beverly Arnold — a grandmother in Detroit who cooks a Thanksgiving meal she can't even eat — and Astrid Chinn, a new mother in Washington, D.C., who is determined to stay on the straight and narrow path to pre-pregnancy weight.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Thanksgiving is about family, but for many folks it's also about feasting. So go ahead, keep your plates packed and glasses full. If you want to eat, drink and be merry today, be ready to pay the prize tomorrow though. If you're on a strict diet that grand Thanksgiving spread can cause some serious temptation. How do you figure out what's really good for you at the dinner table, and what's just the delicious diet buster?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Here to help us sort it all out is Rovenia Brock, NEWS & NOTES health and fitness guru also known as Dr. Ro. And here to speak for the struggling masses is Beverly Arnold of Detroit. Beverly makes Thanksgiving dinner every year, but for health reasons, she doesn't eat very much of it. Also with us is Astrid Chinn. Astrid had her second child a little over a year ago. For several months now, she's been working with Dr. Ro to get back to her pre-pregnancy weight and maintain a healthy diet.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Welcome ladies.</s>Dr. ROVENIA BROCK (Nutritionist): It's a pleasure to be with you, Farai.</s>Ms. ASTRID CHINN: Thank you. Thank you.</s>Ms. BEVERLY ARNOLD (Resident, Detroit): Yes. Thank you for this opportunity to share.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Beverly, let's start with you because you cook a big spread every Thanksgiving for your extended family, but for health reasons you can't enjoy the food like everyone else. Tell us about the decision that you made.</s>Ms. BEVERLY ARNOLD (Resident, Detroit): The decision that I made I know with my body that there are certain foods that I just cannot eat. So I tried to limit, no, I tried it where our stomach only holds so much so I would try to get a little tinny bit of this, a little - just to give me a taste of everything.</s>Ms. BEVERLY ARNOLD (Resident, Detroit): But even that was too much for me. So I had to get it in my mind to do a little preplanning and determine the main thing that I was happy to have, I'd eat turkey. I like the white meat so that's no problem. I eat the green vegetables, then I might be able to have just a teaspoon of some of the other goodies, and that's basically about it. All the total I cannot even eat like a salad bowl, a salad dish, I couldn't even eat that much.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So how do you feel when you are at a table that's loaded up, a groaning board that you have set up, and yet you can't kind of get up to your elbows in food the way most people do?</s>Ms. BEVERLY ARNOLD (Resident, Detroit): The first year was really a struggle, but I had just had the surgery. So that was really a struggle. I almost had to - we eat in a dining room. I had to go in the kitchen. I had to go in a kitchen, take my plate and go in the kitchen. That first year was really a struggle.</s>Ms. BEVERLY ARNOLD (Resident, Detroit): There were so many foods that my body had not been used to eating and accustomed to because after the surgery they have what is called a new stomach. So my body was still getting accustomed to having different foods in my system. So that first year was really - that was really hard. But now I've gotten to the point where I know the things that I can and cannot eat well.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Dr. Ro, having surgery is one very specific and often very successful way to lose weight and keep from overindulging. For people who have not gone through surgery, though, what keeps you in line? What advice can you give people?</s>Dr. ROVENIA BROCK (Nutritionist): I think the first thing is you've got to go - come to the table with the mindset that you are going to stick to your plan no matter how many times aunts - whomever - you know, pushes an extra roll or encourages you to have three or four servings of sweet potatoes.</s>Ms. BEVERLY ARNOLD (Resident, Detroit): Right.</s>Dr. ROVENIA BROCK (Nutritionist): You have to come to the table with the mindset that it's okay to sample, as Beverly said, sample a little bit of your - and I would say pick your three top things, okay? We know that there are staples on everyone's table that which might be - might include the turkey, the stuffing, a vegetable, like greens or green beans or something, and another vegetable. So -but apart from that, there are so many accoutrement, if you will…</s>Ms. BEVERLY ARNOLD (Resident, Detroit): Right.</s>Dr. ROVENIA BROCK (Nutritionist): …goes with this spread. And what you've got to do is really figure out what are my three favorite things and then just try to sample about three of those things, but small portions of those.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Astrid, you are working with Dr. Ro on your health and nutrition. I understand you're trying to get back to your pre-pregnancy weight?</s>Ms. ASTRID CHINN: Yes, correct. I gained 50 pounds with my second child. He's now 16 months. And since March, I've been working with Dr. Ro, and I've lost 35 pounds; I have 15 pounds to go.</s>Ms. BEVERLY ARNOLD (Resident, Detroit): Oh.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Congratulations.</s>Ms. BEVERLY ARNOLD (Resident, Detroit): Good.</s>Ms. ASTRID CHINN: And I'm doing it the old-fashioned way with lots of sweat, work and tears.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, when you think about eating at holidays, like Thanksgiving, do you think of that as sweat, work and tears just to stay away from the food?</s>Ms. ASTRID CHINN: Yes. This year, I am going to have smaller portions, and I have also told some of the chefs in the family about Dr. Ro's book and some recipes where she substitutes better nutritious things out for you. Instead of using the pork and the greens, she uses a liquid smoke for the same taste and flavor. So, I'm hoping that they are going to incorporate it. They have the information, and I've asked over and over again for them to do that for us, but they'll probably have two different pots of it.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Right.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: They'll have the fat pot and the not-so-fat pot.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What's been the hardest thing for you about staying focused because it's clear that you have dedication?</s>Ms. ASTRID CHINN: Just getting up and saying no and making sure that the people who are supporting me understand how hard it is. And I also have two children, and I'm trying to make sure that they are going to follow healthy eating lifestyle.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, Dr. Ro, you have a book that includes these recipes and these - you and I have talked about things, like look for bright foods, look for the vegetables that have bright colors. What - which one of your favorites ways - you've got this idea of using liquid smoke instead of meat in the greens, is there anything else that comes to mind that might be really appropriate for the holidays?</s>Dr. ROVENIA BROCK (Nutritionist): I think sweet potatoes. You know, usually, we - one of the staples of a holiday meal like Thanksgiving might include candied sweet potatoes. But instead of using the loaded up sugar, why not try doing some mashed sweet potatoes with a little orange juice, a sprinkle of brown sugar. You could add skim milk if you want that, and reduced trans fat-free margarine. Or you could even bake a casserole, tossing cubes of potatoes in with Granny Smith apples and raisins and unsweetened apple juice for flavor, you know? And you can drizzle a little black strap molasses over that, throw in some cinnamon, all spice and nutmeg; bake it for a nutritious guilt-free side dish.</s>Ms. BEVERLY ARNOLD (Resident, Detroit): That sounds delicious.</s>Dr. Brock: See? I'm giving you ideas how not…</s>Ms. BEVERLY ARNOLD (Resident, Detroit): Yeah.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Beverly, it sounds like you've got a new…</s>Ms. BEVERLY ARNOLD (Resident, Detroit): I've got to get that book for one thing.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, Beverly, when you think about the influence of your health on your self-esteem, you've obviously given some things up. You've given up being able to eat a few things here, a few things there, or maybe more than a few, but what have you gained?</s>Ms. BEVERLY ARNOLD (Resident, Detroit): Oh, I can tell you, I was an embarrassment. I had became so withdrawn, I didn't like to go out, I didn't get around very well. I ended up having to have a knee replacement, So this is big difference for me. I've come through, I lost weight. I went through the knee replacement. I have - before I gained so much weight, I loved to wear heels because I'm short. And after the knee replacement, I'm back in my heels, but not those tall ones that they're wearing. But I'm back in my heels and the main thing is my self-esteem is gradually - it's getting much better because I've gotten to a point it's - and it was a horrible habit that I'm still having a problem with when I was overweight - extremely overweight - I didn't even weigh myself. I didn't even look in the mirror at myself. So those are some things that I'm still struggling with, and I'd still see myself as a fat person.</s>Ms. BEVERLY ARNOLD (Resident, Detroit): So a lot of these weight gain is physical, but then it's a mental thing also because I still see myself fat; sometimes I'd still go in the fat stores, and I can't wear the clothes from there.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you - by losing a hundred pounds, you have changed your health, but you still have a little bit of the mindset that you don't allow yourself to feel…</s>Ms. BEVERLY ARNOLD (Resident, Detroit): Yes, I do.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: …that you've lost that weight.</s>Ms. BEVERLY ARNOLD (Resident, Detroit): Exactly. And I'm still trying - it's still a struggle, but I'm still dealing with that now. But there was a time I didn't like to get up in front of people to speak, to do anything. I was self-conscious even about sitting in the chair. Oh, is this chair going to hold me - all kind of things. But now, it's such a difference because I've got grandchildren. And to be able to play with my 4-year-old granddaughter, to - and you know what's the best thing is that when I was struggling and couldn't get around well, my mother and my sister helped me all the time. My mother's 81. Now, I can help her, and that's the best feeling in the world; to be able to grab her arm and say, here, mom, pull up on my arm. Let me help you until she started to tell me, you don't have to help me so much.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Beverly, that is an amazing amount of dedication. We want you to stay with us, all three of you. We're going to take a break.</s>Ms. BEVERLY ARNOLD (Resident, Detroit): All right.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: When we get back, more on health in the holidays with Beverly Arnold, NEWS & NOTES nutritionist Rovenia Brock and her client, Astrid Chinn.

Forty years ago at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles, journalist Pete Hamill tried to wrestle the gun away from Sirhan Sirhan, Robert F. Kennedy's assassin. Hamill discusses a new book about RFK on the anniversary of his last day.

ALEX CHADWICK, host: This is Day to Day. I'm Alex Chadwick.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: I'm Madeleine Brand.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Today, we're remembering Robert Kennedy because it was on this day 40 years ago when he won the California Democratic primary, only to be fatally shot after giving a speech at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Among the people with Senator Kennedy that night, the writer and journalist Pete Hamill.</s>Mr. PETE HAMILL (Writer and Journalist; Friend of Senator Robert Kennedy): I was his friend, and it was a mistake to have done that. It's the only time in my long, now, career that I was ever really a friend of a politician.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: It was a mistake, Pete Hamill says, because he lost some of the objectivity he needed for journalism. But for Pete Hamill, the son of Irish immigrants, there was something visceral that drew him to Robert Kennedy.</s>Mr. PETE HAMILL (Writer and Journalist; Friend of Senator Robert Kennedy): Trying to define a friendship is always difficult, but I felt connected to him in a way. I think that had something to do with the kind of Irish fatalism that was in him.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Kennedy had plenty of reasons to be fatalistic: seeing his brother John shot down in Dallas, watching a war in Vietnam spin out of control, witnessing cities burn after Martin Luther King's assassination two months earlier. And on that evening, here in Los Angeles 40 years ago, there was an aura of hope mixed with the fatalism.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Robert Kennedy was running to secure the Democratic nomination for the presidency. Pete Hamill was with the Kennedy campaign that night as they waited for the results of the critical California primary. He says it's hard for young people to understand now, but there were no cell phones, no email, just a lot of people going in and out and bringing bits of news from here and there with them. Bobby Kennedy sat in his shirtsleeves, waiting to learn his fate.</s>Mr. PETE HAMILL (Writer and Journalist; Friend of Senator Robert Kennedy): And he had that fatalistic look still. I think he was prepared to lose, and he was prepared to win. And we were there for a while and finally on the screen came the news that he look - apparently had won the California primary. And he got up to get dressed and get a necktie, and then we all went down in a freight elevator down to the kitchen. And he went out and he did an off-the-cuff speech that was wonderfully - talking and funny, and he hoped that Don Drysdale, the pitcher from the Dodgers, was going to part of this team since he had pitched his sixth straight shutout, which is incomprehensible to the modern baseball. And he made a joke about Sam Yorty not being able to come - who was the mayor of Los Angeles and hated Kennedy. Among other things, he wouldn't provide police protection.</s>Mr. PETE HAMILL (Writer and Journalist; Friend of Senator Robert Kennedy): And after thanking everybody and his wife and the usual people, it was time to leave. And I was in the kitchen, suddenly, along with other reporters, Rosey Greer and George Plimpton, people like that. And he turned at one point because three Mexican chefs or assistants or busboys or something were standing on his left, my right, and he turned to shake hands with one of them - a young guy named Juan Romero (ph). And as he was turned, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang came the shots. Not loud. Not 45s. It was a small- caliber pisto, and then it was just chaos. And there was a struggle with Sirhan for the gun - his arm being lowered enough that the people behind Kennedy were shot in the legs.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Were you struggling for that gun?</s>Mr. PETE HAMILL (Writer and Journalist; Friend of Senator Robert Kennedy): Yeah. I was one of the guys - I didn't have that - my hand on the gun, but I threw a good punch over the shoulder of somebody. And then the reporter instinct took over again, and I was just watching every detail. Looking at everything. Look at the reaction, writing the sounds. And I knew somehow that I'd never talk to him again. He had this smile that was almost accepting, as if to say, OK, this is it. That it had been there all along - again, that fatalism. Don't count on November, you might not get through June. And they took him away. And we all went out to the hospital. My brother Brian (ph) had a car and was driving us and we waited all night; he was still alive.</s>Mr. PETE HAMILL (Writer and Journalist; Friend of Senator Robert Kennedy): We kept getting bulletins about being alive, and he lived for 24 hours and died, again in the early hours. And it was appalling for it to have happened again. It was something that I - maybe some of us including me, might have said, gee, what if this happens again? But we didn't count on it, it didn't seem possible, although the killing of Martin Luther King made you worry about it all the time. And then here it was. And we left around just before dawn. My brother Brian, who's a photographer, and somebody else. We dropped someone off. Off we went. I was living in Laguna Beach, and we drove all the way home. I had two young daughters, 5 and 3.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Read that last paragraph, would you?</s>Mr. PETE HAMILL (Writer and Journalist; Friend of Senator Robert Kennedy): Sure. "Flocks of birds were rising from the darkness. We'd reached the house and I went in and turned on the television set and looked at the latest bulletins. I sat facing the set and the sea. Brian and I drank some whiskey, and then he went off to sleep. I looked up and saw my daughter Adrianne (ph) staring at me in a baffled way. My face must have been a ruin. She came over to me, tears in her eyes, and touched my face. I started to weep for her, for her sister, for my Irish parents, for my friends, for America. Out there, sea to shining sea. I held her tight, wondering what would become of all of us."</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Pete Hamill, I don't know how you could bear to write that.</s>Mr. PETE HAMILL (Writer and Journalist; Friend of Senator Robert Kennedy): Or read it. Forgive me. But that was the feeling, and I think a lot of people had it. A lot of people I knew stopped investing any kind of hope in politics. There were a lot of discussions later - what if this hadn't happened, what if he had been president instead of Nixon. There would have been no Watergate, the war would be over fast, etc. But they were all the great what ifs of history.</s>Mr. PETE HAMILL (Writer and Journalist; Friend of Senator Robert Kennedy): Today, there are people who are 40 years old walking past me on 42nd Street who never heard of Robert Kennedy. He was a great "perhaps" as far as our politics was concerned. And yet the voice for some of us echoes across those decades, and we still worry about the people who run and about our country. I mean, one of the things that was true of the Kennedy campaign was that you could oppose a president, oppose his policies, not because you hated America, but because you loved America. And I think the love they had for America is finding new form now. People who are saying, we're better than this. And if that happens, then the spirit of Kennedy might be alive among people who'd never heard of them.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Writer Pete Hamill. He's written the introduction to a new book, "A Time It Was: Bobby Kennedy In The Sixties," by photographer Bill Eppridge. Pete Hamill, thank you.</s>Mr. PETE HAMILL (Writer and Journalist; Friend of Senator Robert Kennedy): Thanks for having me.

As troops close in on Mosul, Rachel Martin talks with former White House counter-insurgency adviser David Kilcullen. He describes how techniques failed to secure lasting peace in Iraq and Afghanistan.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Military forces in Iraq began the battle to retake Mosul this past week. It's the second-largest city in Iraq, and ISIS has controlled it for the past two years. The fact that a terrorist group like ISIS was ever allowed to get a foothold in that country is a blow to the tens of thousands of U.S. troops and military personnel who tried to bring stability to Iraq after the 2003 U.S. invasion.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: David Kilcullen is one of them. He was a senior counterterrorism adviser to then Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and General David Petraeus when he was overseeing that war. Kilcullen argues in his book, "Blood Year," that the U.S. had a window of opportunity to make its counterinsurgency in Iraq work. But that window, he says, is now closed.</s>DAVID KILCULLEN: Counterinsurgency itself isn't actually a strategy. It's just a set of techniques. And it has to be embedded within a broader political or military strategy. And that's where we really struggled. In Afghanistan, we went into one of the least developed, most damaged countries on the planet. We articulated an incredibly ambitious nation-building reconstruction program but then failed to put in the attention or the resources that would have been needed to meet the goals that were laid out.</s>DAVID KILCULLEN: Having committed ourselves to this giant effort in Afghanistan, we then turned away within a year and invaded a completely different country that was, you know, not close to Afghanistan and required many of the same resources that we would have needed to do Afghanistan properly. And I think in the case of Iraq, it wasn't so much a lack of resources. It was that we didn't put the effort into coming up with a workable political strategy to bring the different elements of Iraqi society together.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So if we can boil this down, are you suggesting that we wouldn't be in the place we are in today, that ISIS wouldn't be the threat that it is today had the U.S. employed a counterinsurgency set of tactics, as you outlined them, in the way that they should've?</s>DAVID KILCULLEN: No, I think it's more complicated than that. I mean, you know, there is no doubt in my mind that there would not be an ISIS today if we had not invaded Iraq in 2003. At the same time, though, there also wouldn't be one if we hadn't left Iraq in the way that we did in 2011. And I should point out that that's not a partisan political statement. It was both the Obama and the Bush administrations that were involved in both of those decisions - well, in the decision to leave.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: But the U.S. conducted a robust counterinsurgency war in Afghanistan for at least six years, spent tens of billions of dollars on that effort. I understand you're saying if the U.S. hadn't taken its eye off Afghanistan and moved to Iraq that that situation could've turned out better. But what is the time horizon for a successful counterinsurgency campaign? How many years does it take?</s>DAVID KILCULLEN: That's actually very well understood, how many years it takes. It takes between 10 and 15 to be successful. Counterinsurgency is not a long-term solution. What it is is like taking antibiotics so that you can buy time for that political reconciliation and transition that's needed to resolve the problem.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Barack Obama has used drone warfare more than any other American president. It's been a central piece of his military strategy against al-Qaida and ISIS. And the administration has looked at it as really a key way to keep U.S. troops out of harm's way while keeping the threat at bay. Do you think that has been effective?</s>DAVID KILCULLEN: I think I would put drones in the same category as counterinsurgency, right? It's a technique, not a strategy. And using it instead of a strategy is not, you know, viable. That said, it's been a very effective technique in damaging senior leadership of terrorist groups, particularly in Pakistan and Yemen. It's been quite effective, as you mentioned, in keeping U.S. military forces out of the environment on the ground. Where I think it's been lacking is that we have tended to rely on it rather than focusing on addressing the - you know, the issues that make drone strikes necessary in the first place.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So if counterinsurgency is a tactic that can be used against terrorist groups, if drones are an effective tactic, what is the overarching strategy that you believe is lacking right now?</s>DAVID KILCULLEN: Well, I think that's the great question, right? I mean, I - and I think there's actually a very strong degree of continuity in U.S. counterterrorism strategy going back to about the end of 2004. And it basically involves three elements. One is to break up and to destroy the leadership of current terrorist groups. The second one is to prevent the emergence of new terrorist groups to take their place. And then the third is to work with partners to remedy the conditions that give rise to those terrorist groups in the first place.</s>DAVID KILCULLEN: We've done extraordinarily well on the first element. We've done pretty poorly on the second two. And what I recommend we do is we start with defeating the Islamic State.</s>DAVID KILCULLEN: To do that, I think you have to recognize that the Islamic State is not - it's really not one thing. It's three things. It's a state-like entity. It's a series of guerrilla movements across about 20 countries. And then it's this sort of largely online network of supporters. Each of those requires quite a different set of approaches.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: David Kilcullen, former adviser to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and General David Petraeus. Thanks so much for talking with us.</s>DAVID KILCULLEN: Thanks for having me.

Minimum wages are on their way to $15 an hour in New York and California. Workers look forward to the bump. But some small businesses are bracing for a hit to their bottom line.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: It's time now for our series Hanging On, where we take a look at the economic pressures of American life. This week, we're looking at the minimum wage because it's on its way up to $15 an hour in California and New York, which is an unprecedented wage bump at the state level. And it's going to have an effect both on workers and employers. NPR's Hansi Lo Wang has more.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Shopping these days is a little easier on Edica Reese's wallet. She works as a cashier at a McDonald's in New York City, where the minimum wage is on the rise.</s>EDICA REESE: It's helping. I guess I can get more essentials. Before, I couldn't get what I needed.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Sometimes she would have to ask neighbors for toilet paper when she ran out. But now she and other fast-food workers in the city are making at least 10.50 an hour. That's set to go up to $12 an hour at the end of the year.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: And that means she can afford to keep up her own stock of toiletries.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Are you finished shopping?</s>EDICA REESE: Yes, I am.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: But it's going to be a while before the minimum wage finally hits the planned $15 an hour. That's because the wage hikes in New York state and California are being phased in with small bumps every year. Reese says 15 an hour would make a big difference for her and her 3-year-old daughter.</s>EDICA REESE: I guess I could pay my bills on time instead of waiting for the next check to come and the next check. I live check to check still. I need to save a little bit more money, you know?</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: For a full-time worker, a year's salary at 15 an hour, before taxes, adds up to just over $31,000. And some employers say they're not sure how they're going to afford it, including Kurt Samuels. He owns Family's Pots and Grill, a Jamaican restaurant in Mount Vernon, N.Y., where, at 5:30 in the morning, he starts making...</s>KURT SAMUELS: Brown stew chicken, curry goat, oxtail, and soon I'll have some jerk chicken ready.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: This is all for the lunch rush?</s>KURT SAMUELS: For the lunch rush.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Samuels has one part-time employee who helps take orders. She's currently making the minimum wage, and he says when it goes up...</s>KURT SAMUELS: It's going to be hard, you know? Maybe her hours most likely going to be cut, you know, 'cause the end of the day, got to pay the rent, pay the bills, the gas, light, insurance.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: He recently raised prices, but he's worried about losing customers if he does it again.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: A few blocks away, Miesha Stokley is trying to figure out how to keep staffing her cupcake shop. She has one minimum-wage worker who helps with baking.</s>MIESHA STOKLEY: She's definitely worth minimum wage, so I can't argue with that. I just have to, you know, work harder so we can make more money and I'll be able to pay. But I don't argue with it because it's expensive to live in New York.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: For now, Stokley's putting more hours in herself at Cupcake Cutie Boutique.</s>MIESHA STOKLEY: I work nights as a nurse. So I'm here in the morning and the afternoon, and then I go to work at night.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: So when do you sleep?</s>MIESHA STOKLEY: I barely sleep (laughter).</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: It's part of the pressure many other small-business owners are facing in cities, including Seattle and Washington, D.C., where the minimum wage is also rising to $15 an hour. But lawmakers and economists are paying extra attention to the wage bumps in New York state and California.</s>LINDA BARRINGTON: For most economists, this is untrodden territory.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Linda Barrington heads Cornell University's Institute for Compensation Studies. She says it's hard to predict how raising the minimum wage at the state level will impact New York and California's economies. That's because past studies have not looked at increases this big and that affect this many people. Besides workers and employers, though, she says we should keep an eye on how these wage hikes will affect prices.</s>LINDA BARRINGTON: The more that businesses can pass it along to consumers, the less it's going to negatively affect employment.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Those consumers, of course, include minimum-wage workers. That's partly why some critics of minimum-wage hikes say increases are not effective tools for reducing income inequality. Still, Barrington adds, any increase will touch not only fast-food chains and other large-scale industries but also those on the smaller scale, like families hiring a home health care worker.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: For Edica Reese's family, though, it's a change that can't come soon enough. She lives in a public housing development in Harlem, where she pays $300 a month for a small studio apartment she shares with her daughter, Kayleene.</s>EDICA REESE: And you like the fight for 15, right?</s>KAYLEENE: Uh-huh.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Kayleene went to rallies with her mother, where she and other fast-food workers protested for minimum wage increases.</s>EDICA REESE: What do you say?</s>KAYLEENE: What do you want? Fifteen. When do you want it? Now. We don't get it, shut it down.</s>EDICA REESE: Yay.</s>UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: Yay.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Workers in Arizona, Colorado, Maine and Washington are also calling to raise their state's minimum wages, though to a few dollars shy of 15. Those hikes will be on the ballot on November 8.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Hansi Lo Wang, NPR News, New York.

Merriam-Webster noticed the number of unique words coming out of this campaign, and has been using Twitter to report the most searchable words. Lexicographer Peter Sokolowski talks to Rachel Martin.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: With big league hombres and bigly hombres, nasty women and swaths of swatches, the presidential campaign has had a vocabulary all its own. And Merriam-Webster noticed. The dictionary has been using its Twitter account to report what words people have been searching for most and to clear up any misconceptions. I learned, for instance, that unproud is in fact a word. Peter Sokolowski is a lexicographer at Merriam-Webster, and he joins us now from our member station WFCR to tell us how the 2016 election is affecting our vocabulary. Hi, Peter.</s>PETER SOKOLOWSKI: How are you?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I am doing well. So many words. So many words.</s>PETER SOKOLOWSKI: (Laughter).</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So let's get through some of these. You've been tracking on your Twitter feed what words people look up most during debates. So what was trending on Wednesday night during the last presidential debate?</s>PETER SOKOLOWSKI: Without question, the winner was bigly and hombre, those two words which were used by Donald Trump or apparently used by Donald Trump. I think he actually said big league.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Thank you, because I maintain that he actually said big league.</s>PETER SOKOLOWSKI: Yeah.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Two separate words, not bigly. But...</s>PETER SOKOLOWSKI: Sure.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: ...Apparently, I'm alone.</s>PETER SOKOLOWSKI: No, you're not. Linguists have discussed this and have studied it. And in fact, it does seem that he said big league. Part of the reason is our ears are keyed in a certain way. We're English speakers, and we don't expect to hear big league used as an adverb. That was the odd piece of it.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: That's true.</s>PETER SOKOLOWSKI: And so we naturally think bigly with that L-Y ending, which does, you know, cue the adverb.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Huh. What else were people looking for?</s>PETER SOKOLOWSKI: Well, hombre is interesting in the sense that people didn't know how to spell it. So one of the things that we see online is the different attempts that are made. So they landed on ombre, O-M-B-R-E, which is the French word for shadow. It's also the name for, I think, a card game or something in English, which is why it's there. And also umber with a U, which is, of course, the color. And so they landed on these different pages kind of searching for the correct word, which reminds me of Aleppo. There's a combining form, lepo-, L-E-P-O, which people landed on because Aleppo is the name of a city, which is also in the dictionary, but people didn't know how to spell it.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Ah. So people were just searching for lepo- instead of...</s>PETER SOKOLOWSKI: Yeah.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: ...Aleppo. Got you.</s>PETER SOKOLOWSKI: One thing that I have found with - especially with debates in real-time is that people look up words that are very surprising. For example, people look up the word debate itself at the very beginning of debates and the word moderator. And sometimes I get feedback on Twitter - for example, people will say, you know, boy, I really feel sorry for the American public if they don't know what debate means.</s>PETER SOKOLOWSKI: But I say something else. I say that curiosity is not ignorance. And what I mean by that is most of us as adults, when we go to the dictionary, we're looking for something subtle. We're looking for something deeper. We're looking for some - it could be the etymology, the word history of debate. It could be a simple question - does a debate need to be between two people, or is a moderator always a neutral party? You know, that kind of thing.</s>PETER SOKOLOWSKI: In other words, there are kind of encyclopedic questions that can be answered in the dictionary as well. And I don't register a sort of signal of ignorance when we see the curiosity of the public.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So you're saying that it doesn't necessarily mean that someone doesn't understand what the word debate means, but they're searching for some kind of greater contextual understanding of the word.</s>PETER SOKOLOWSKI: Absolutely. In fact, the words that are looked up every day, day in, day out, regardless of the news, are words that are kind of abstract and tough, words like integrity or paradigm or ubiquitous. These are kind of SAT words, but they're words that I think adults feel responsible for. And so we check them out.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Peter Sokolowski. He is a lexicographer at Merriam-Webster. Peter, thanks so much for talking with us.</s>PETER SOKOLOWSKI: It's a treat. Thank you.

This week, we take a look at the role of oil in African politics. Plus, a former Congolese militia leader faces charges for recruiting child soldiers. For analysis of news and events from Africa, Farai Chideya talks with Edmond Keller, professor of political science and director of the Globalization Research Center on Africa at UCLA.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya, and this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It's Tuesday and time for Africa Update. This week, we take a look at how Africa's oil affects the cost of gas in America.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Plus, a former Congolese militia leader goes on trial; the charge: recruiting and training child soldiers.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: For more we've got Edmond Keller. He's director of the Globalization Research Center on Africa at the University of California, Los Angeles.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Welcome, professor.</s>Dr. EDMOND KELLER (Professor of Political Science and Director of Globalization Research Center on Africa, University of California, Los Angeles): Thank you. I'm glad to be here.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yes, I'm glad to have you right here in the room with me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, in the past two weeks, the average price for a gallon of gas in the U.S. has jumped to more than $3. The cost of a barrel of oil was nearly a hundred dollars. Mideast oil might come to mind, but Americans also used millions of barrels of oil imported from Africa every day, so what percent of U.S. oil consumption comes from the continent?</s>Dr. EDMOND KELLER (Professor of Political Science and Director of Globalization Research Center on Africa, University of California, Los Angeles): Well, presently, it's about 17 or 18 percent, and that tops the Middle East oil that we import which is about 16 percent.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What regions, what nations are we talking about from Africa?</s>Dr. EDMOND KELLER (Professor of Political Science and Director of Globalization Research Center on Africa, University of California, Los Angeles): Well, for the most part, we're talking about states that border the Gulf of Guinea in West Africa although there have been rich oil deposits discovered in Sudan and in Chad, but we don't do business in Sudan because there are sanctions against that government. We also get some oil from Algeria, and Libya has deposits as well.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: You mentioned Sudan. China has not been shy about going to them for oil, have they?</s>Dr. EDMOND KELLER (Professor of Political Science and Director of Globalization Research Center on Africa, University of California, Los Angeles): Not at all. As a matter of fact, China imports about 40 to 50 percent of its oil from Sudan right now.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now you talk about something that you termed the resource curse. What's that?</s>Dr. EDMOND KELLER (Professor of Political Science and Director of Globalization Research Center on Africa, University of California, Los Angeles): Well, the resource curse has to do with the boom of some discovery of mineral deposits such as oil and natural gas. And what's happened in the past is that countries that have such a boom tend to neglect other sectors of their economy such as agriculture. And in Africa, that's critical because in Africa, the population growth outstrips agricultural production, and there's always a need for importing food. So the curse has to do with that neglect of other sectors of the economy.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So it sounds like you're saying that people who are in these oil-rich nations may not actually see a lot of that wealth.</s>Dr. EDMOND KELLER (Professor of Political Science and Director of Globalization Research Center on Africa, University of California, Los Angeles): Absolutely, they won't. Oftentimes what happens is if there's a certain amount of corruption - official and unofficial - some political officials tend to scrape off the profits from this oil in sort of a rent-seeking kind of behavior. And, of course, they don't tax their citizens very heavily, so the citizens don't have leverage against the government to make them behave more responsibly.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, who then gets the money?</s>Dr. EDMOND KELLER (Professor of Political Science and Director of Globalization Research Center on Africa, University of California, Los Angeles): Well, the money goes to corrupt politicians and in places like the Niger Delta right now. There's a great deal of political-slash-criminal activity related to the oil production in the Niger Delta. There are groups that claim to be fighting for self-determination, but at the same time, what they do is tap into these oil pipelines, skim off oil and - you know, last year they earned about $1.5 billion in this way, and they take this money and they pump it into the acquisition of more and more weapons, fast boats that operate on the high seas, and in that way they are able to kidnap oil workers and people involved in that industry, but offshore.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What comes to mind for me is the whole idea of conflict diamonds and it sounds as if so many of the resources on the continent of Africa become embroiled in these contests for power.</s>Dr. EDMOND KELLER (Professor of Political Science and Director of Globalization Research Center on Africa, University of California, Los Angeles): Oh, absolutely. It's about power, but it's also about economics and sort of a economic aggrandizement, and particularly in those enclave economies such as oil, such as coltan, such as diamonds, and even gold.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I want to move on to another topic. Last week, the International Criminal Court announced that Thomas Lubanga will stand trial in March. Now, he's a former militia leader in the Democratic Republic of Congo who allegedly recruited and trained thousands of child soldiers. This is going to be the International Court's first ever war crimes trial. Lubanga has denied all the charges. How significant is this prosecution?</s>Dr. EDMOND KELLER (Professor of Political Science and Director of Globalization Research Center on Africa, University of California, Los Angeles): It's very significant because once we get this - this court has been talked about for years and years and years, and was finally approved and created in 2002. There are a number of conflicts that have taken place in Africa which involve or have been termed crimes against humanity. We do have the International Criminal Court in the Hague right now where - not Charles Taylor - Slobodan Milosevic was tried, but this particular court is going to be directed more at these crimes against humanity throughout the world.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, specifically, what is Lubanga accused of?</s>Dr. EDMOND KELLER (Professor of Political Science and Director of Globalization Research Center on Africa, University of California, Los Angeles): Well, he's accused of a lot of things. One, as you mentioned, recruiting child soldiers; that is soldiers for his militia who were under 15. He's been accused of massacres. Five - fifty thousand people had been killed in the past four years as the consequence of the activities of his movement, and there was one incident where - there was a massacre of 400 people: Some of the victims were murdered with sledgehammers, others were taken into captivity as child soldiers, but also as sex slaves, and he's done a lot of damage.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, in addition to this, there have been indictments for war crimes in Darfur and also with Uganda's rebel - Lord's Resistance Army. How effective do you hope or do you think this court will be in addressing these kinds of issues?</s>Dr. EDMOND KELLER (Professor of Political Science and Director of Globalization Research Center on Africa, University of California, Los Angeles): That's a good question.</s>Dr. EDMOND KELLER (Professor of Political Science and Director of Globalization Research Center on Africa, University of California, Los Angeles): I just want to address one other thing about that Lubanga. The resource there in Eastern Congo is gold and that's driven a lot of what people see as ethnic conflict, you know, his ethnic group against others.</s>Dr. EDMOND KELLER (Professor of Political Science and Director of Globalization Research Center on Africa, University of California, Los Angeles): Well, how effective do I think this ICC will be. I think it will be effective at least in, you know, in that it will have a demonstration effect. There'll be countries which will still not be able to - or criminals who will not be able to be tried. Sudan, for example, the two individuals who have been indicted as well: One is a minister, a government minister and the other is a militia leader of the Janjaweed, but Sudan won't turn over either of these. The fact is, DRC is cooperating with the court, and, therefore, Lubanga has been turned over. And I'm pretty sure they'll beat the troughs of the LRA's individuals as well.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Prof. Keller, thank you so much.</s>Dr. EDMOND KELLER (Professor of Political Science and Director of Globalization Research Center on Africa, University of California, Los Angeles): You're welcome.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Edmond Keller is a professor of political science and director of the Globalization Research Center on Africa at UCLA. He was at our NPR West studios.

LaShonda Katrice Barnett interviewed more than 40 black female musicians in her quest to know about the craft of songwriting. She shares what she learned in her book, I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft, and tells Farai Chideya how these women shaped modern music.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: LaShonda Katrice Barnett teaches creative writing for a living. She says she's always been passionate about the word. But that passion didn't necessarily include lyrics to music. Then one day, Barnett came across the work of singer/songwriter Abbey Lincoln. The artist's way of storytelling opened up a whole new world.</s>Ms. ABBEY LINCOLN (Artist): (Singing) I think about the life I lived, figure made of clay. I think about the things I loved, the things I gave away.</s>Ms. LaSHONDA KATRICE BARNETT (Author, "I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft"): I saw this album and picked it up. I had never heard of her, and it blew me away. From there, it just sort of snowballed.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It got LaShonda Katrice Barnett thinking about female songwriters. Do black women bring something different to songwriting? LaShonda interviewed more than 40 female musicians about the process of creating songs. She's turned that into a book titled "I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft."</s>Ms. LaSHONDA KATRICE BARNETT (Author, "I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft"): Farai, I think that the image of a black woman stepping on stage up to a microphone is a very common image. And I think when comparing female musicianship to male musicianship, the ideals that it's somehow less serious. And I don't know if that's because in our society, we are sort of naturally trained to look at women as caregivers, as nurturers, as an emotional or at least, as being more than - more emotional than men.</s>Ms. LaSHONDA KATRICE BARNETT (Author, "I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft"): I was teaching a course at Jazz Lincoln Center spring of 2006 and we had one evening, a one two-hour session, to devote to Billie Holliday, which is not enough time, of course. But I remember at the end of the class, feeling very down because the students were very, very interested in Holliday as this tragic figure.</s>Ms. LaSHONDA KATRICE BARNETT (Author, "I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft"): Had questions about her lovers and her drug abuse and various things that I'm thinking to myself and I tried to shift the conversation a couple of times, but I remember thinking that it's too bad that we can't really focus on a conversation about her musicianship. The fact that, you know, she was also a songwriter. She penned the lyrics to "Don't Explain," which has been covered many times.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That's actually one of my favorite songs.</s>Ms. LaSHONDA KATRICE BARNETT (Author, "I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft"): But that didn't come up during the course of our two-hour conversation. And that really did stay with me. I think I wrote the proposal for the book a couple of weeks after that incident.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you decided to interview people to go to the source, musicians, you interviewed the legendary Nina Simone. How was that?</s>Ms. LaSHONDA KATRICE BARNETT (Author, "I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft"): It was slaving(ph). I was awestruck. I interviewed Ms. Simone by a telephone in June of '99. And, Farai, my palms are sweating so much I could barely maintain my grip on the receiver. It was amazing.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Give me a moment from that.</s>Ms. LaSHONDA KATRICE BARNETT (Author, "I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft"): I was a little bit surprised by the fact that Ms. Simone seemed very interested in sort of getting the legacy, getting her musical legacy down. And as I listened to her, I realized that she was merely trying to make the point that there are all these anecdotes about me as being the defiant one, but I'm a musician. I'm a classically trained pianist. I take my craft very, very seriously. I'm at the piano six to eight hours a day. And I just remember thinking, you know, I wished that we could talk more about her songs.</s>Ms. LaSHONDA KATRICE BARNETT (Author, "I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft"): But Simone was on another page, she was just wanted to really drive home the fact that she is very serious musician, which is, of course, nobody would doubt. All it takes is one listen to anything that Simone ever recorded and you come away with that.</s>Ms. NINA SIMONE (Jazz Artist): (Singing) My skin is black.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This is her song, "Four Women."</s>Ms. NINA SIMONE (Jazz Artist): (Singing) My arms are long. My hair is wooly. My back is strong, strong enough to take the pain. It's been inflicted again and again. What do they call me? My name is Aunt Sarah.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Let's just skip around a little bit in genre. You have Angelique Kidjo. She does not generally sing in English, although she started to. What did she have to say about that?</s>Ms. LaSHONDA KATRICE BARNETT (Author, "I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft"): Actually, Farai, that was the last question that I asked her. I asked her to speculate as she would about her popularity in America. Because, as you pointed out, she doesn't sing in English on most of her albums. She records in Yoruba. She records in Fon, Portuguese, French, but rarely English. And she said, well, you know, like music is a universal language. And I think that people are responding to something else in my voice. There's an emotional connection to that.</s>Ms. LaSHONDA KATRICE BARNETT (Author, "I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft"): And I believe she's absolutely right. One of my favorite songs is (unintelligible). And I have no idea what the song is about. But the first time I heard it, my heart was enthralled. I just couldn't get over the beauty of the song.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, some of the people in your book might not automatically be thought of as songwriters. People like Chaka Khan, for example.</s>Ms. CHAKA KHAN (Singer): (Singing) I will love you anyway even if you cannot stay. I think you are the one for me. Here is where you ought to be.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What did you learn about her approach to songwriting?</s>Ms. LaSHONDA KATRICE BARNETT (Author, "I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft"): It's very interesting to talking to Chaka because she sees herself as a conduit for the music. She was not willing to dissect and analyze the music on a certain level. She was more interested in getting out the idea that you have to come to the music very humble.</s>Ms. CHAKA KHAN (Singer): (Singing) Oh sweet thing. Don't you know you're my everything?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, there's a story behind "Sweet Thing." Tell us (unintelligible).</s>Ms. LaSHONDA KATRICE BARNETT (Author, "I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft"): Yes, absolutely. I asked what inspired that and she said that she was sitting around with Tony Maiden. And that she and Tony wrote the song together. And I said, okay, but who inspired the song? Who were you thinking about? And she laughed and she said, girl, I think I told all my boyfriends at the time that that song was about them. But the song was really about Tony. And then she started talking about the wonderful, a musical chemistry that she had with Tony and, you know - the fact that the song was written in less than five minutes, just blows me away because that's an R&B staple. That would be with us forever.</s>Ms. CHAKA KHAN (Singer): (Singing) Oh, sweet thing.</s>Ms. JOAN ARMATRADING (Artist): (Singing) Oh the feeling when you're reeling. You step lightly thinking you're number one. Down to zero with a word. Leaving for another one. Now you walk with your feet back on the ground down to the ground, down to the ground.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: There are also people who were format breakers like Joan Armatrading. And she said it is something about the songs that demand that the lyrics be as poetic as the notes you strum together. Talk about what you got from the interview with her.</s>Ms. LaSHONDA KATRICE BARNETT (Author, "I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft"): I wasn't surprised, first of all, to learn that Joan Armatrading wrote limericks or poems as a youth because anybody who studies her lyrics, you can - the poetry just leaps at you from the page. I was really taken aback by the work that she puts into meshing or fusing the music with the lyrics - and the way that she was able to speak so eloquently about it. Well, just the fact that, you know, she's in her mid-50s, but she's still very open and still embracing lots of different ideas and fusing them at her music. It was very inspiring because she still opens her mind.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Was there any difference you found between the people who might be 60s and above and the people who might be 40s and below?</s>Ms. LaSHONDA KATRICE BARNETT (Author, "I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft"): Well, the major thing that I noticed is that in the diamond group, that's the older group, they're very, very concerned with the state of black music today and they spoke about that at me. But some of that I kept in the book and other pieces I kept out.</s>Ms. LaSHONDA KATRICE BARNETT (Author, "I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft"): But with the younger artists, they talked about the fact that there was a shift in the music that nowadays, for example, you'd be hard pressed to find whole families listening to the same music.</s>Ms. LaSHONDA KATRICE BARNETT (Author, "I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft"): Brenda Russell spoke about this and Dianne Reeves. And they remembered fondly, you know, the time when they were growing up how moms and fathers and grandmothers and cousins - everybody was enjoying the same music and how - that's sadly missing. They see a lot of that in today's culture. So that was one thing that really struck home with me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, LaShonda, thank you so much.</s>Ms. LaSHONDA KATRICE BARNETT (Author, "I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft"): Thank you very much for having me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: LaShonda Katrice Barnett teaches creative writing and jazz history at Sarah Lawrence College. Her book is "I Got Thunder: Black Women Songwriters and Their Craft."</s>Ms. DIANNE REEVES (Singer): (Singing) I am an endangered species but I sing no victim's song. I am a woman. I am an artist. I know where my voice belongs. I am an endangered species but I sing no victim's song. I am a woman. I am an artist. I know where my voice belongs. I am a woman. I exist. I shake my fist but not my hips. My skin is dark my body is strong. I sign of rebirth no victim's song.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That's our show for today. And thank you for sharing your time with us. To listen to the show or subscribe to our podcast, visit our Web site, nprnewsandnotes.org. No spaces, just nprnewsandnotes.org. To join the conversation or sign up for our newsletter, visit our blog at nprnewsandviews.org.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: NEWS & NOTES was created by NPR News and the African-American Public Radio Consortium.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Tomorrow, cooling family tensions that could heat up your holiday.</s>Ms. DIANNE REEVES (Singer): (Singing) Silence my reflex no tongue to speak. I work in the fields, I work in the store. I type up the deals and I mop the floors. I am an endangered species.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya. This is NEWS & NOTES.

For a different perspective of the death penalty and crime deterrence, Farai Chideya talks with Justin Wolfers, an assistant professor of business and public policy at The Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania. Wolfers believes the study is inconclusive and says the science is infected with ideology.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And now for another perspective, we've got Justin Wolfers. He's an assistant professor of business and public policy at The Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania. Professor Wolfers, welcome.</s>Dr. JUSTIN WOLFERS (Assistant Professor, Business and Public Policy, The Wharton School of Business, University of Pennsylvania): Pleasure to be here.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So there have been a bunch of new articles analyzing research on the death penalty, arguing that there is a deterrent effect. How do you process the debate at this stage over whether the death penalty is a deterrent?</s>Dr. JUSTIN WOLFERS (Assistant Professor, Business and Public Policy, The Wharton School of Business, University of Pennsylvania): I think the debate, so far, has been actually quite conclusive, but conclusive about proving that the empirical evidence here is very inconclusive. The truth is, after poring over the data, it's just plain very hard to know. And, Farai, let me give you an intuition for that. You know, I'm - I do a lot of statistics and econometrics, and normally, I would - I like to tell people that statistics can help solve many of our problems.</s>Dr. JUSTIN WOLFERS (Assistant Professor, Business and Public Policy, The Wharton School of Business, University of Pennsylvania): This is a case where, if you think about, say, a state like California, the number of homicides that occurs in California in any given year - it could be two and half thousand one year, one and a half thousand the next, 3,000 the year after, so it's not only a very, very high number, but it goes up and down a whole heck of a lot - then if you can think about the number of executions that occurs in California, it'll be one execution one year, three the next, zero the next, and if one were looking to see, say, as many as the proponents claim that each execution deterrs, say, four homicides, then they're looking to explain a very, very small proportion of the ups and down in the homicide data. And so trying to sort out which of the ups and downs are due to prison policy, which are due to police, which are due to variation in executions just turned out to be an incredibly difficult task.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm thinking here, thought, specifically of the research by Roy Adler and Michael Summers who looked at U.S. executions between 1979 and 2004, compared those to murders the year after the executions, and they found that executions - when the executions increases, the number of people murdered dropped off. Are you saying that that's just a statistical anomaly?</s>Dr. JUSTIN WOLFERS (Assistant Professor, Business and Public Policy, The Wharton School of Business, University of Pennsylvania): Yes. It's no coincidence that their work was published in the Wall Street Journal which has a very political editorial board. So just to clarify for your listeners, they looked at the aggregate number of homicides in the U.S. year-to-year, and they found that it went up when the number of executions went down. If you looked at an earlier sample the previous 50 years, you, in fact, find the opposite.</s>Dr. JUSTIN WOLFERS (Assistant Professor, Business and Public Policy, The Wharton School of Business, University of Pennsylvania): Or an alternative, you could take the same approach and look at what happened to the homicide rate in states that actually had zero executions and it turns out, in states that don't have the death penalty, the murder rate over the last 40 years has pretty much moved in walk step as with states that do have the death penalty, suggesting that the difference between the two, there isn't much of a difference between the two and, therefore, not much that the death penalty can explain.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So when you think about these professors publishing an op-ed in the Wall Street Journal, and you mentioned that they are highly politicized. They're considered by many to be a very, very highly politicized conservative op-ed page, what does that do to the court of public opinion? How much do things like op-eds and academic studies have to do with how people actually legislate and how courts actually make decisions?</s>Dr. JUSTIN WOLFERS (Assistant Professor, Business and Public Policy, The Wharton School of Business, University of Pennsylvania): The public certainly look to academics to try and sort out some of these questions, like does the death penalty deter. The only people who have the - or the people who have the largest appetite to try to answer the public on that, unfortunately, are those with ideological opinions which, often, they'll dress up as science.</s>Dr. JUSTIN WOLFERS (Assistant Professor, Business and Public Policy, The Wharton School of Business, University of Pennsylvania): You can go back to the 2000 presidential election debates when President Bush was asked if he was for or against the death penalty and why. He said he was for it because he believed in deterrence, but he actually made an even stronger statement, which is he said he thought that was the only reason to be for it. If that's the case, then there really should be greater scientific effort in trying to understand what really is going on with respect to deterrence. Unfortunately, of course, at the moment, I think the scientists are a little too infected with ideology.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What about the debate over methods of execution like lethal injection, which is currently being examined as to whether or not it is cruel or whether it's efficient? What's the status of that debate in your mind, and how much does that influence the general debate over executions?</s>Dr. JUSTIN WOLFERS (Assistant Professor, Business and Public Policy, The Wharton School of Business, University of Pennsylvania): I think there's essentially two debates there. One is a legal debate - and this is the debate, literally, the Supreme Court's having, which is: Is the method of - is lethal injection cruel and unusual punishment, which is prohibited by the Constitution? There I'd simply defer to the doctors, you know, this is not a domain that you would want economists or statisticians wandering in.</s>There is a second question which is: Would different methods be better or worse at deterring criminals? And, again, here, the evidence is not very useful, but I think its, at the very least(ph), introspection would suggest, if there were such a thing as a deterrent effect and therefore if one were on the pro-death penalty side, presumably, we would then want the method of execution to, not only be painful, but public because that would maximize, I would guess, the deterrent effect.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: You're talking beheadings-in-the-courtyard type of executions.</s>Dr. JUSTIN WOLFERS (Assistant Professor, Business and Public Policy, The Wharton School of Business, University of Pennsylvania): This is the logical conclusion from the view that what we're trying to do with the death penalty is deterrence. Yeah. Again, it's very hard for the evidence to speak one way or the other on that, and I think there's nothing particularly credible that can be said one way or the other. There's an interesting legal issue here as well with the two in effect.</s>Dr. JUSTIN WOLFERS (Assistant Professor, Business and Public Policy, The Wharton School of Business, University of Pennsylvania): In the 1977 decision examining whether - by the Supreme Court reinstating the death penalty - or it might have been the '72 decision suspending the death penalty - the question of whether execution was cruel and unusual punishment came up, and at least one of the justices was of the view that if executing a criminal did not have a deterrent effect, then that would necessarily makes it cruel and unusual, and so that's a way in which the deterrence debate can speak to some of those questions that are arising.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Professor Wolfers, thank you so much.</s>Dr. JUSTIN WOLFERS (Assistant Professor, Business and Public Policy, The Wharton School of Business, University of Pennsylvania): Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Justin Wolfers is an assistant professor of business and public policy at The Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania.

A college student may have been one of the last people to interview Donda West, mother of rapper Kanye West who died following cosmetic surgery complications. Freelance journalist and Brown University student Souleo spoke to West two days before her death. He talks about their conversation with Farai Chideya.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya. And this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Donda West will be buried in Oklahoma City today. The mother of rapper Kanye West died earlier this month, a day after having cosmetic surgery. Coroners are still looking for the cause of her death.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Besides being Kanye's mom, Donda West was also a professor and administrator at Chicago State University.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Just two days before her death, Professor West did one of her last interviews. She spoke with freelance journalist and college student Souleo. His story will appear in the January issue of Sister 2 Sister magazine.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Souleo joins me now. Welcome.</s>SOULEO (Senior Student, Brown University; Freelance Journalist): Thank you. How are you today?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm doing great. So you're a senior at Brown University.</s>SOULEO (Senior Student, Brown University; Freelance Journalist): Yes.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Snagging this interview must have been a huge deal. Why did you want to speak with Donda West?</s>SOULEO (Senior Student, Brown University; Freelance Journalist): It was a very huge deal. Before (unintelligible), I just want to offer my condolences to Kanye West and the West family and all those affected.</s>SOULEO (Senior Student, Brown University; Freelance Journalist): And to answer your question, I wanted the interview because she - I knew that she was very involved with the Kanye West Foundation. She reveals in the interview that this was, you know, one of her deepest passions. And I wanted to talk to her about her work, the foundation, and the sort of issue that she was aiming to address with it. And the interview request was put in six months prior to November 8th. So this was, you know, a long time, you know, coming, you know, waiting for the interview, and I'm happy that I did get speak to her, though.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And that foundation deals with the issue of education and dropout prevention, sometimes using music to try to encourage kids to stay engaged.</s>SOULEO (Senior Student, Brown University; Freelance Journalist): Definitely. Their first initiative and program was Loop Dreams, which Kanye and his mom, Dr. West, were going - that was to be the first initiative. And that was basically to educate children about the music business, behind the scenes, about music production, to really inspire them to get motivated and to address issues within education as well.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you conducted the interview over the telephone. What could you tell about her personality? How did she strike you as you did the interview?</s>SOULEO (Senior Student, Brown University; Freelance Journalist): Wow. She - it was an amazing conversation. It was over a half an hour long. And she just seemed to have such a warm and caring spirit. She was graceful. She was kind. She was wise. She was highly intelligent and she was focused and deeply passionate. So she just struck me as, you know, just a great, awesome, mother-figure. And, you know, she even reminded me of my own mother who passed away this year in February. So it was sort of, like, I was speaking to my mom in a sense because they just had a similar loving spirit.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, I'm very sorry to hear about your loss.</s>SOULEO (Senior Student, Brown University; Freelance Journalist): Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Having gone through what you just went through, Kanye West apparently broke down during a recent concert in Europe. Can you empathize with what he's going through right now?</s>SOULEO (Senior Student, Brown University; Freelance Journalist): Oh, my god. I can empathize 100 percent - even more. You know, I can totally empathize with what he's going through. At the same time, no one knows what he's going through. Because when you're living in the moment of mourning and of pain, it's really personal and really deep. And so I think all we can do is just offer our support and our love to him. And - but I certainly know there's confusion, there's pain. For me, it was just, you know, in some ways, it almost hasn't hit me completely. So there's a long process to go through when you're mourning.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, Donda West also wrote a book about raising her famous son. And you talked to her about the challenges of raising kids today. She mentioned teen pregnancy, materialism, the Internet.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Here's an audio clip from that interview. Let's take a listen.</s>Dr. DONDA WEST (Professor, Chicago State University; Mother of Kanye West): So when you look at all of the obstacles that there are in raising kids, you can sort of see why it's really, really important to try to keep their minds straightened out, but at the same time being sensible enough so they can be creative and come into their own.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What kind of an impression did you get of how she brought that spirit to raising her son, who is, of course, at this point not only incredibly creative, but incredibly wealthy at being creative?</s>SOULEO (Senior Student, Brown University; Freelance Journalist): Of course. And, you know, she addresses those points. She really - I think with Kanye, she really did want to just inspire him and keep him motivated. And she really goes into a lot more detail about that in the interview in the January 2008 issue of Sister 2 Sister. She's asked to what was some of her proudest and most disappointing moments with Kanye, what things does she wish that she could have done differently in raising him. And so she really addresses all of that. But, like that quote - like the audio that you just played, she really did want to, you know, let him be free, let him speak his mind, let him be creative and driving human being.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, this whole question of the death and whether it's related to the plastic surgery has brought Donda West's name to the lips of many people who may not even know that much about her famous son. What do you think of her work in education, which is something that many people, especially in the African-American community, knew about?</s>SOULEO (Senior Student, Brown University; Freelance Journalist): I think her work in education is profound. She was looking at education for about 31 years, you know, chairwoman of the English department. And she - I think with the - I think the great thing, if anything, that comes out of this is that people will now know about Dr. West, the humanitarian, the activist, the leader.</s>SOULEO (Senior Student, Brown University; Freelance Journalist): I think that in her passing, we lost a leader. And we don't have many leaders nowadays, whether that would be in the black community or, you know, whether that would be just in mainstream society. You know, we question our government. And so she was someone who led with her heart and with her mind and with a wisdom, and we don't have a lot of that. So we definitely lost a leader and someone who cared about education and really instilling true values within our children and within our own heart.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Were you able to get any sense of whether Kanye West himself approves of you talking about this interview, talking about his mother?</s>SOULEO (Senior Student, Brown University; Freelance Journalist): Well, actually, yeah. We have - you know, before we went ahead to (unintelligible) the article to Sister 2 Sister, I contacted the West family in (unintelligible) and let - I told them of my intentions that I have the interview and that I, you know, wanted to, you know, publish it because I thought that it would truly honor her legacy. And so we were back and forth in communication with them, keeping them updated on which magazines were interested, you know, with - and on our final decision is to go with Sister 2 Sister. So they were definitely aware of it, and they gave us their blessing.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Souleo, thank you so much.</s>SOULEO (Senior Student, Brown University; Freelance Journalist): Thank you very much.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Souleo is a freelance journalist and senior at Brown University. His interview with the late Donda West will appear in the January issue of Sister 2 Sister magazine.

University students in South Africa have been protesting for weeks, demanding the government make university free. They say the goal is equal access for poor blacks, the country's majority.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: In South Africa, protests are raging at university campuses. Across the country, classes have been canceled, buildings have been set on fire. Police are clashing with students and, in some cases, arresting them. The protests are about tuition and also about race. That's according to Fasiha Hassan. She's one of the protest leaders, a law student in Johannesburg at the prestigious University of Witwatersrand. That's an epicenter of the protests. When we reached her on Friday, she was at a police station, helping students who'd been arrested.</s>FASIHA HASSAN: We had three students who were arrested for singing struggle songs. You know, students in South Africa sing songs that our mothers and fathers sort of sang during the anti-apartheid movement. So those three students were singing these songs. They were arrested for singing. There are students who are being arrested for public violence, incitement of violence, illegal gathering. There is, in fact, one charge, at least, of malicious damage to property.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: What exactly is your movement fighting for?</s>FASIHA HASSAN: The biggest call is for free, quality and decolonized education. There have been huge issues of access to education, particularly higher education.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: We should explain in South Africa, many students do attend university and pay no tuition. Your argument is that there should be no tuition for any student. It should be entirely free.</s>FASIHA HASSAN: Yes. So government funding is there, but it is not sufficient. And I think I must give some context here to say the basic education system in South Africa, particularly the public one, is of a very low quality. So students who come from a poor, disadvantaged background are not getting enough of a quality education on a sort of high school level or primary school level and thus are not able to gain access into university.</s>FASIHA HASSAN: Now, let's say someone does even gain access into a university - which, by the way, is an exception. Now, say they do. They're in the city for the very first time. Accommodation is unlikely to be covered, so that student is likely to sleep in the library, in a computer lab. They don't have money every month, so we've had to start a feeding scheme. And that student ends up failing academically, not because they don't work hard - by virtue of how this system is structured, that they aren't able to get the support they require and thus they aren't able to perform academically.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: I'm looking at a picture of classes being disrupted at the University of - I mean, the current situation means that a lot of universities are closed. Classes are not happening. Nobody's getting an education. How is that in anybody's interest?</s>FASIHA HASSAN: We all want to go back to the academic program. But we must understand the urgency and the need for this free and quality education. And I think perhaps I haven't made myself clear in saying that there are hundreds of thousands of students who have their livelihoods on the line by virtue of the fact that they've been born poor and the fact that they've been born black because the system is also structurally racist. And we still (unintelligible) inherited this system from apartheid. We inherited this system from colonial powers. It was never designed to educate the masses of this country. It was designed to educate the white minority.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: You mentioned apartheid ended 22 years ago. It ended back in 1994. May I ask - how old were you then?</s>FASIHA HASSAN: I'm 22. I'm one of the so-called born-frees.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: The born-frees.</s>FASIHA HASSAN: And I think that's why this student movement is so important in South Africa's history, that you are seeing born-frees in a university space saying that thank you to our parents and our grandparents for fighting for liberation, but we are most certainly not done in ensuring that the status quo has changed, in ensuring that there's equality, that in fact the baton has merely been handed over to us to ensure that in a democratic South Africa, we continue to fight to equalize the playing field.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Fasiha Hassan. She is secretary general of the Student Representative Council at the University of Witwatersrand in Johannesburg. Fasiha Hassan, thanks so much for speaking with us.</s>FASIHA HASSAN: Thank you for having me.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: After we spoke to her, more students were arrested for throwing rocks and for arson, students accused police of shooting rubber bullets, and the university imposed a curfew. A university spokeswoman says police are on the scene. Anyone caught in the act of disrupting classes using stink bombs or any other weapons may be arrested.

Members of the Danish rock band, Sune Rose Wagner and Sharin Foo, say their unconvential launch strategy will result in an album that may be "totally schizophrenic, but in a really wonderful way."

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The Raveonettes are a Danish rock duo, and they're doing things a little unconventionally this year. Rather than releasing an entire album all at once, they're releasing one song on the last Friday of each month. And they're calling the project Rave of the Month.</s>THE RAVEONETTES: (Singing) This world is empty without you. Tonight, tonight, tonight.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The Raveonettes are made up of Sune Rose Wagner and Sharin Foo, and they join me now from our studios at NPR West. Hey, you too. Welcome to the program.</s>SUNE ROSE WAGNER: Thank you.</s>SHARIN FOO: Hi. Thanks.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The song we're hearing right now is called "The World Is Empty (Without You)." This was the first song you released for the project. This is back in January of this year. Are these things that are just kind of coming up organically in that month? Are you setting strict writing parameters? Are there things you've had on the shelf for a while?</s>SUNE ROSE WAGNER: I'm not the best at having too much time to work on things, so...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: ...You need a deadline, Sune?</s>SUNE ROSE WAGNER: Yeah, I need a deadline, so I usually wait.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Sharin, how do you feel about that, Sune's procrastination?</s>SHARIN FOO: Yeah, this is an ongoing discussion in the band because, you know, I get a track, you know, five hours before it has to be delivered, which, you know - but I suppose I've gotten used to it. And this has become a very Raveonettes way of working, which is sort of spur-of-the-moment, very stream-of-consciousness way. And I sort of hate it and like it.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You sound resigned. Although I imagine there is a kind of freedom to that. You don't have to overthink things.</s>SHARIN FOO: Yeah.</s>SUNE ROSE WAGNER: Well, it's - the whole idea is that it's hard to make decisions sometimes. You know, it's like when you go to a restaurant and they have, you know, 10 pastas that sound really good but you just wait till the waiter gets there and you just pick one. And it's kind of like the same thing.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I get that, the paralysis of too many choices, totally.</s>SUNE ROSE WAGNER: Yeah.</s>SHARIN FOO: But there is a wonderful freedom in this project, which is that nothing has to be cohesive. And it's really like a blank slate.</s>SUNE ROSE WAGNER: Yeah.</s>SHARIN FOO: And that's actually been a very positive experience for the both of us.</s>THE RAVEONETTES: (Singing) So I know that you've been cheating with my friend. Prepare to die. Prepare for war.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: This is the fourth one that was released from the month of April. It's called "Junko Ozawa." So who was this person? Who was Junko Ozawa?</s>SUNE ROSE WAGNER: Well, she was a very famous videogame composer in the '80s kind of thing. So the most famous one she did was "Rolling Thunder," it's called.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: "Rolling Thunder"?</s>SUNE ROSE WAGNER: Yeah.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: OK. I don't know if that was on my Atari. You know, I'd have to go look it up.</s>SUNE ROSE WAGNER: It was. Trust me, it was, yeah.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Was it?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And you were just interested in that kind of techno throwback '80s videogame sound?</s>SUNE ROSE WAGNER: It's a very harsh sound, obviously. But at the same time, I guess, when you grew up in the '80s like that, it's also a very nostalgic sound.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I'm going to play February's song, which is called "Run Mascara Run." Before I play this, anything you want to say about this particular track?</s>SUNE ROSE WAGNER: That's actually my favorite. That's all I'm going to say.</s>THE RAVEONETTES: (Singing) Seen you in my dreams of love and falling bombs. Young roses lie dead when the napalm smell is gone.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Interesting, napalm and doo-wop. Kind of...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: ...Contradictory vibes on this.</s>SHARIN FOO: Perfect cocktail.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Yeah. So you a fan of kind of 1950s doo-wop?</s>SUNE ROSE WAGNER: Yes, I'm a big fan of 1950s doo-wop. I'm actually a really good friend of Dion from Dion and the Belmonts.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Are you?</s>SUNE ROSE WAGNER: Yeah. He once took me back to his old neighborhood, Author Avenue in the Bronx, and showed me, you know, where he grew up and where they started, you know, the band. And we were surrounded by these crazy wannabe mobsters the whole day. He's treated like Frank Sinatra up there. They won't leave him alone, you know? The people are following us on the street. Every time we walk into a store, the guy gives us free Parmesan cheese.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: (Laughter).</s>SUNE ROSE WAGNER: And I came home with huge shopping bags of cheeses and sausages and everything Italian from - it was - yeah, it's pretty spectacular.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Are these things going to exist just in isolation in this one-off project, or do you imagine ever kind of putting them together and finding some kind of thread that you could sew them into an album?</s>SUNE ROSE WAGNER: They will all released sort of like as a compilation album I guess next year or by the end of the year or...</s>SHARIN FOO: ...Yes. But, you know, what's going to be great is we don't even have to think about the sequence because it's going to be January, February, March, April. And it'll be probably totally schizophrenic, but in a really wonderful way, you know?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Sune Rose Wagner and Sharin Foo are The Raveonettes. You can hear their month-by-month songs by going to theraveonettes.com. Hey, you guys, thanks so much for talking with us.</s>SUNE ROSE WAGNER: Thank you for having us.</s>SHARIN FOO: Thanks for having us.</s>THE RAVEONETTES: (Singing) Don't cry, just let me go.

How do you unplug from politics in this heated election season? That's a question we put to tourists in front of the White House this weekend.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: If you are right there feeling Don's pain, struggling to survive this campaign season, you're not alone. We got to wondering about the different tactics people are using to unplug once in a while. This weekend outside the White House, we heard a lot of differing emotions about the race. Carlos Fernandez is mad.</s>CARLOS FERNANDEZ: I'm fed up. I'm tired of discussing these kind of crappy issues for politics.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Lou Berman tries to laugh it all off.</s>LOU BERMAN: I think we've had enough, and we honestly want our TV back (laughter).</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Many people told us the election is like a reality show they can't look away from. Melanie Young says her friends are no help.</s>MELANIE YOUNG: My Facebook news feed is just full of - apparently everybody I know is a political expert. I wish I had enough self-control to not go on Facebook because of the elections. I don't.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Keith Elliot of Tennessee says he took matters into his own hands.</s>KEITH ELLIOT: I'll put it this way. I used to listen to talk radio all day long, and then I got burnt out on it because you can only take so much.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: He turned the dial to refocus.</s>KEITH ELLIOT: I started listening to country music to kind of wash it all out.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Samantha Jones says she has a 6-year-old who hears everything.</s>SAMANTHA JONES: So I do have to turn it off sometimes. I watch more kids shows now (laughter).</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: And Tony Faulkner has a more definitive solution.</s>TONY FAULKNER: Literally just turn everything off. Just sit there and just pull out a book. There's no advertisements in a good science fiction book (laughter).</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: He's got a point. Maybe in the end, dreaming of life on a different planet is the way to go until November 8.

NPR's Mary Louise Kelly talks to Maine Public, Chief Political Correspondent of Maine Public about Donald Trump's effort to court voters in Maine's 2nd Congressional District, which might be won by a Republican nominee for the first time since 1988.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: We're hearing this morning from points on the map where the presidential campaign is playing out in unpredictable ways. And we head north now to Maine, a state where the outcome is not really in doubt. Unless the polls are dead wrong, Hillary Clinton is expected to carry Maine, which raises the question - what was Donald Trump doing there yesterday? We've got Steve Mistler on the line to help answer that question. He's the chief political reporter for Maine Public Radio. Good morning, Steve.</s>STEVE MISTLER, BYLINE: Good morning. Thanks for having me.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: We are glad to have you on our air. So Trump held a rally yesterday in Bangor, in a state that polls indicate leans blue, as we said. Why is that a good use of his time?</s>STEVE MISTLER, BYLINE: Well, some models of Trump's path to the White House include him winning Maine's 2nd Congressional District. And that means it could get - it could have an outsized role in the election if Trump actually carries some of the bigger swing states. It's the largest district east of the Mississippi, and it's historically been purple. Voters have sent Democrats and Republicans to Congress. But the district has also undergone some changes that have made it shade red in the last several years. There's been paper mills that have closed and manufacturing jobs have left. It's older, whiter, rural and fewer people with college degrees than the more liberal 1st District. So if the prevailing analysis of Trump voters is correct, it's really in his sweet spot.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: We should give people a little Maine politics tutorial here, I guess. Maine has four electoral votes and three of the four are generally considered safe for Democrats. But that fourth, that 2nd District vote that you're talking about, that's the one that maybe is looking like a toss-up now.</s>STEVE MISTLER, BYLINE: Yeah, that's right. There were some polls early in mid-September that showed Trump with a decent lead or just ahead of Clinton. That means he's poised to do something that nobody here has done since Maine changed how it allocated its electoral votes in 1969, and that's to split the electoral votes.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Can you identify what the factors are that may be driving that? What's shifted?</s>STEVE MISTLER, BYLINE: Well, some of the things I just mentioned, which...</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: ...The paper mills.</s>STEVE MISTLER, BYLINE: Yeah, that's - I think that's part of it. I mean, it was - five mills have closed in the last two years. And that means that a lot of good-paying jobs have left. And so people are either underemployed or they're not making what they used to.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: What about how this specific campaign is playing out? For example, the controversy that has dominated this week of the question over Trump's treatment of women.</s>STEVE MISTLER, BYLINE: Well, that remains to be seen, how that does play out. I mean, he was at a rally in Bangor yesterday. And he discussed that, but not with the same specificity that he has at other rallies. He didn't mention his accusers by name, and he just said the accusations were lies perpetrated by the media.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: One factor - the governor of Maine, Paul LePage, is Republican. And he has been outspoken all through this campaign season in his support of Trump. Does he remain so? And how much weight does his voice carry?</s>STEVE MISTLER, BYLINE: He does remain an ardent supporter of Trump. And his voice does carry a lot of weight in the 2nd District, which he has carried twice in his first two elections here. And in fact, Trump parroted many of the things that the governor talks about quite frequently, which is welfare, the loss of manufacturing jobs and the heroin crisis. At the same time, the governor's very controversial. And he's made national headlines in a negative way twice since September. And incidentally, he was not at Trump's rally yesterday. And he had introduced him at the three previous rallies that Trump has held here.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: In just a few sentences, Steve Mistler, what are you watching for? What are you keeping your eye on with these last three weeks to go?</s>STEVE MISTLER, BYLINE: Well, what I really would like to know is whether the - I mean, Ted Cruz won here and Bernie Sanders won here...</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: ...In the primaries.</s>STEVE MISTLER, BYLINE: That's correct. And we're - what we're waiting to see is whether those voters move to the respective Republican and Democratic candidates. And Bernie Sanders was here last week basically making the case that Trump is too dangerous. And I think perhaps that he's making a stronger case than Trump has so far to the Catholics, who really punch above their weight in Maine and in terms of turning out to vote.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: All right. That's Steve Mistler. He's chief political correspondent and statehouse bureau chief for Maine Public Radio. Steve, thanks very much.</s>STEVE MISTLER, BYLINE: Thanks for having me.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Elsewhere in the program today, we'll be checking on how the campaign is playing out in Ohio and Arizona. And later this week, NPR will be live fact-checking the last presidential debate. That's Wednesday night starting at 9 Eastern on npr.org.

This month, Chicago is paying tribute to the city's first black mayor, Harold Washington. Washington died during his second term in office 20 years ago. Farai Chideya considers his legacy with Washington's former deputy press secretary and Chicago Sun-Times columnist Laura S. Washington.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya, and this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Twenty years ago, Chicago lost one of the city's most beloved mayors, Harold Washington. In 1983, Washington became the first African-American to run the windy city. Washington brought a wave of changes to the city. Under his motto fairer than fair, he increased minority business contracts and opened the Chicago budget process to public input. He was reelected in 1987 but never finished his second term that's because Washington died from a massive heart attack at the age of 65.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: The city of Chicago is celebrating Washington's legacy. Here to talk more about the late mayor is Washington's former deputy press secretary, Laura Washington, no relation. Today, Laura is a columnist for the Chicago Sun-Times and a professor at DePaul University.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Welcome.</s>Professor LAURA WASHINGTON (Columnist, Chicago Sun-Times; DePaul University): Hi, Farai.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It's great to talk to you. So his win was considered an upset. What was the political and racial climate like in Chicago when he ran for mayor in 1983?</s>Professor LAURA WASHINGTON (Columnist, Chicago Sun-Times; DePaul University): Well, the city has always been very segregated, you know, Farai, and it remains that way today. The Democratic Party establishment, the machine that was established by Richard J. Daley, was in full swing and, basically, was a party of exclusion. Most of the folks that ran the city, most of the mayors that ran the city had been pretty much taking care of business for the white community, and African-Americans and Latinos, in particular, felt really left out of the system.</s>Professor LAURA WASHINGTON (Columnist, Chicago Sun-Times; DePaul University): So when Harold Washington came along, this was actually his second run at the mayor's race. He, I think, responded and struck a chord in these communities to people who sort of like it's our turn. It's our time to get an opportunity to sit in city hall.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, I understand he didn't get a lot of press. First of all, explain why. And, secondly, if that was the case, what did he use to win?</s>Professor LAURA WASHINGTON (Columnist, Chicago Sun-Times; DePaul University): The media was pretty much tied in to the same old, the way city hall had been running again the Democratic Party establishment. They didn't - most folks - and they covered politics then and even today - are white and didn't have a lot or little bit handle on what was going on in communities of color. So they didn't see Harold Washington coming. He had run before. He was a well established, very popular black congressman on the south side of Chicago. They didn't really know him very well.</s>Professor LAURA WASHINGTON (Columnist, Chicago Sun-Times; DePaul University): There were a couple of other people in the race. One was Mayor Daley's son, Richard, and who's the current mayor - and who is not the current mayor - and Jane Byrne, who was the mayor at the time. And they were really focused on them. It was a three-way race, and Harold Washington snuck up right behind them and came in to win. I think the way he did it was by igniting a movement. There was a lot of unhappiness with the way government had been run, the exclusionary practices of Jane Byrne. So he tapped into that.</s>Professor LAURA WASHINGTON (Columnist, Chicago Sun-Times; DePaul University): I remember sitting down - I covered the mayor in his candidacy before I went to work for him. I remember sitting down with his campaign manager, Al Rabie(ph) and asking, you know, your organization is pretty much nonexistent. You don't have the money. You don't have the staff. You don't have the organization. How do you expect to win? And what Rabie said me is, we're not running a campaign, we're running a movement.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, he was someone who made it clear that he wanted change. He talked about this in his 1983 victory speech. Let's listen.</s>Professor LAURA WASHINGTON (Columnist, Chicago Sun-Times; DePaul University): We fought it with unseasoned weapons…</s>Professor LAURA WASHINGTON (Columnist, Chicago Sun-Times; DePaul University): …and a phalanx of people who mostly had never been involved in a political campaign before. This has truly been a pilgrimage. I definitely will be moving forward as well, including more people and more kinds of people than any government in the history of Chicago.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, Chicago has been famous for its patronage system, sometimes decried for its patronage system. When Harold Washington came in, he brought people in but some other people must have had to go. What did that do to the city?</s>Professor LAURA WASHINGTON (Columnist, Chicago Sun-Times; DePaul University): It tore the city, and particularly city hall, apart. He declared, the day he was inaugurated, he declared war on the Democratic Party machine. He said, you know, days - work for a day's pay. We're going to bring in new people. We're going to open up the government to the entire city and that was the declaration of war to the machine. So the folks and the machine really dug their heels in and made sure that he couldn't get anything passed. He brought in a lot of new people, but they were mainly through what they call Shakman-exempt positions or political appointments that he had control over.</s>Professor LAURA WASHINGTON (Columnist, Chicago Sun-Times; DePaul University): He couldn't do much about the folks who were there and, of course, the folks who were in the government were sabotaging him left and right, but he was able to - by executive order. He couldn't get anything passed to the city council because he didn't have the majority. The white majority fought him tooth and nail. But he was able to get a lot done through executive orders. And actually, in many ways, just by going directly to some of the white aldermen's constituents, the folks that were not voting on the policies and practices that were going to be good for their community, made sure he got the word out through the media and just on his own to tell them, look, you should talk to your representatives. They're not representing you well.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, he died from a massive heart attack while sitting at his desk in city hall. He never got to serve out his second term. Some people think there was foul play behind his death. What do you think about that?</s>Professor LAURA WASHINGTON (Columnist, Chicago Sun-Times; DePaul University): Yeah, that's why those old rumors that just won't die even after 20 years. The reason for that is that he, you know, the man was larger than life. He had so much energy. He worked 14 hours a day. He was always on the street. And that morning, the morning he died, he had been out at a groundbreaking, he'd been his usual jolly self. He went back to his office, was sitting and talking to his press secretary and he fell over on the desk. By the time they got him to the hospital, he probably was already dead.</s>Professor LAURA WASHINGTON (Columnist, Chicago Sun-Times; DePaul University): It happened so suddenly. It was such a shock. And because it happened when no one was around, I think it just - there were - it was rife for conspiracy theories that he'd been poisoned, that he'd been assassinated. People just couldn't let go of Harold Washington because he was such an attractive, powerful man. But I don't think there was any truth to that.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: We're almost out of time. Give me a thought or a sentence on his legacy.</s>Professor LAURA WASHINGTON (Columnist, Chicago Sun-Times; DePaul University): His legacy was equity and fairness and coalition politics, which is something that I think you don't see often enough in American cities today. He realized that addition, it gets you a lot further than subtraction. And he had a lot of success with that.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Laura, thank you.</s>Professor LAURA WASHINGTON (Columnist, Chicago Sun-Times; DePaul University): Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Laura S. Washington is a columnist for the Chicago Sun-Times and a professor at DePaul University. She joined us from our NPR bureau in Chicago.

NPR's Mary Louise Kelly talks with Jim Galloway of the Atlanta Journal-Constitution about the state of the 2016 presidential election in Georgia, where the race has grown closer than had expected.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: Donald Trump continues his slide in the polls. That's following an extraordinary week in which women, a growing number of them, stepped forward and accused Trump of groping and kissing them without their consent. A key question is whether Trump's decline now puts some predictably red states within reach of Hillary Clinton. Today marks 23 days and counting until the election, and we are marking it by checking in with different corners of the country where the campaign is playing out in unexpected ways. We begin this hour in Georgia. That's where Jim Galloway covers politics for The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Jim Galloway, good morning.</s>JIM GALLOWAY: Good morning.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: You had a column that had this headline - "A Donald Trump Implosion Could Put Georgia Back In Play." So let me start with you there. Is Georgia back in play?</s>JIM GALLOWAY: Well, we don't know yet. We haven't seen the hardcore evidence, which is increased TV advertising, visits from, at least if not the candidates themselves, some principle surrogates. That hasn't happened. But you've seen little things happen. You've seen - you've seen - we've got Evan McMullin, the Never Trump fellow, coming through here on Monday. It's - I will tell you what - this Donald Trump video is making an impact, but it's happening slowly.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: This is the video where we see him making inappropriate comments.</s>JIM GALLOWAY: Right, exactly, right. I mean - I mean, Georgia has such a - it's such a high population when it comes to to evangelical Christians. This really is roiling - it's splitting them quite a - right in half. And the impact of that - we just haven't been able to measure that. I would - I would guess that we're going to - the newspaper will be doing some polling within the next week to 10 days, and I think that's when we'll really get a firm handle on what's going to happen. A previous poll earlier last - late last week had Donald Trump still at 48 percent, Clinton at 42.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: So narrowing. I mean, you mentioned polling, and I know that NPR's latest battleground map had Georgia at the start of the month - at the start of October - leaning Republican. And we just moved it into the tossup category.</s>JIM GALLOWAY: It is - look, it's entirely possible. The last time the state went blue was in 1992 for Bill Clinton. And what happened was that Ross Perot just gobbled up 12 percent of the vote, mostly Republican. And the final tally was Bill Clinton 43 percent, George H.W. Bush maybe a half percentage point below him. So it was very tight.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: I mean, we should remind people of the political landscape in Georgia. The governor, both senators, all Republicans. I know Democrats struggled even to find somebody to run against the incumbent, Senator Johnny Isakson, earlier this year. If the - just in a sentence or two, if I had called you six months ago and told you Georgia would be a tossup three weeks before Election Day, would you have believed me?</s>JIM GALLOWAY: Oh, of course not, no, no, no, no. And I will tell you what - there's a kind of a halfway mark between the status quo and and Hillary Clinton taking the state of Georgia. And that is if Donald Trump plunges enough, then he does hurt Republican incumbent Johnny Isakson in the U.S. Senate race. You know, we have - we have a - we require our candidates to earn 50 percent-plus-one. And we've got a three-way race in the U.S. Senate race. If Isakson dips below 50 percent, then that's a nine-week runoff. That could be the real impact.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: All right. That's the view from Georgia. Ahead this hour, we'll head to Maine to hear how the political landscape there may be shifting. We've been talking to Jim Galloway. He's covered politics for The Atlanta Journal-Constitution for three decades. Thanks a lot.</s>JIM GALLOWAY: You're welcome.

Alex Chadwick talks with Brendan Koerner about his book, Now the Hell Will Start. It's the true story of Private Herman Perry, an African-American soldier in World War II who murdered his commanding officer and fled to the jungles of Burma.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: This is Day to Day. I'm Madeleine Brand.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: I'm Alex Chadwick. "The Greatest Manhunt of World War II" - part of the subtitle of a new book that tells the unbelievable true story of a GI on the run in the jungles of Burma. Sex, drugs, murder, race, the story keeps unfolding to a very dark end. We know Brendan Koerner from Slate.com "Now the Hell Will Start" is his first book. Brendan, hi.</s>Mr. BRENDAN KOERNER (Writer, Slate.com): Hey, thanks for having me, Alex.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: So this is the story of a man named Herman Perry. Who was he?</s>Mr. BRENDAN KOERNER (Writer, Slate.com): He was an ordinary guy. He was a young African-American meat cutter from Washington D.C. who was drafted into the army in 1942. Shipped off to the Indo-Burmese border region to work on the Ledo Road, which was a military highway that was being built from north-east India across northern Burma, and then linking up the old Burma road and China, to keep Nationalist China supplied during the war.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: That was a huge project and undertaking, and one that was extremely difficult. You write about the circumstances of this place - just brutal. Leeches, disease, terrible heat, humidity, rain, mud and the headhunters.</s>Mr. BRENDAN KOERNER (Writer, Slate.com): And the headhunters. These were the Naga. This is an ethnic group, a multi-tribal ethnic group that lives up and down the Indo-Burmese border in the hills there. And this was a tribe renowned and feared for its practice of headhunting. It really was the linchpin of society at the time.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: So these people are all over the hills. Also tigers, snakes, a lot of dangerous things. But maybe the worst part of daily life for the soldiers like Herman Perry - this is an all-black kind of construction brigade that he's in - are these racist white officers. I mean they have a very difficult time there.</s>Mr. BRENDAN KOERNER (Writer, Slate.com): Yeah. This is a segregated army during World War II, you have to keep in mind. Many, many black soldiers were consigned to labor battalions because the War Department really bought into the racial science of the day, thinking that black soldiers weren't necessarily fit for combat. So most black soldiers were consigned to these kind of menial, manual labor chores and often to the worst assignments, the Ledo Road being one of them.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Well, Herman Perry snaps after months and months and months working on this road, very bad conditions. He's being maybe harassed or maybe disciplined, by a white lieutenant. And Herman Perry shoots him, kills him and runs for the forest.</s>Mr. BRENDAN KOERNER (Writer, Slate.com): Yeah, that's right. The other factor in this is that he'd also been coming off an all-night opium vendor, and that's why he'd missed the call of reveille in the morning. And so he'd been placed under arrest, actually. And he'd been to the stockade once before and had a very horrific experience there. They use very extreme punishments on the inmates in the stockade in India. So when he learned that he's was going to be under arrest once more and heading back to the stockade, he just absolutely snapped, and ends up shooting this white lieutenant who was unarmed, I should add, to death, on Ledo Road.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: So he goes into the forest. He's just got the clothes that he's wearing, nothing else. And what happens?</s>Mr. BRENDAN KOERNER (Writer, Slate.com): Well, first he actually wanders back into camp. After three days he kind of goes through a dissociative episode and kind of forgets what happens. He goes back to camp as if nothing had happened. And he learns, much to his horror, that he had killed this white lieutenant, and there was this 1000 rupee price on his head. He has a rifle with him, and his friends give him a few tins of food. And he starts running. But he realizes pretty early on during his flight that he has to find a place to settle down permanently, or he'll never make it in the jungle. And one day he's walking along a stream up on the Pa-kai(ph) mountains and he sees the glimpse of this peaked longhouse with palm fronds and he starts walking towards it. And this is the village where he kind of reinvents himself as a member of the Naga tribe.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: How is it that this black American GI, on the run, and really being pursued by the army, how is he able to ingratiate himself with a tribe of headhunters living in this remote village in the mountains of Burma?</s>Mr. BRENDAN KOERNER (Writer, Slate.com): On the most basic level, bribery. He actually enlisted the aid of some fellow, sympathetic soldiers, African-American soldiers, who stole rations for him, especially a tin fruit cocktail. And the Nagas love this, not just for the food, but also for the tin. They didn't really have lightweight metals. He also had an M-1 rifle. The Nagas just had spears and swords, and so the rifle came in very handy for hunting.</s>Mr. BRENDAN KOERNER (Writer, Slate.com): But I think the other aspect is just his personality. I interviewed his sister. And the thing that came up again and again about Herman is just he's a very, very charming man. He really had the gift of gab. And he picked up some of the tribal language while working on the roads. He really used that to his advantage, in becoming a member of this tribe.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: And Herman stays on in this village, he meets the daughter of the - I guess of the village or clan chief. And they fall in love and he marries her. They have a child - I mean, I'm thinking - no, Brendan's got to be making this up, right? I mean what a story!</s>Mr. BRENDAN KOERNER (Writer, Slate.com): Yeah, it's such a story. And there are many times in researching it I thought I'm going to hit a brick wall here, it can't really get any more incredible. And if it does become more incredible, there's no way I can verify that these things actually happened. But every time I surprised myself and found a way to fact check myself and to verify that these events actually took place. And a lot of that is actually just in official army documentation from his court-martial.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: He was court-martialed. This manhunt, the great manhunt did succeed at last. He was caught, he was tried, he was sentenced to death for the murder of this lieutenant. And then - he manages to escape.</s>Mr. BRENDAN KOERNER (Writer, Slate.com): Yeah, he escapes from Death Row in India. He actually lucked out in that the appeals process was held up by a variety of kind-of quirks of fortune. So it took a few months for his death sentence to be approved by the military brass. And during that time he was able to plot his escape.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Brendan, we'll stop there, because I don't want to give away the ending. But I do want to know this. How do you get this information, because none of the really central characters here are still alive?</s>Mr. BRENDAN KOERNER (Writer, Slate.com): There are many people involved in the drama who are still alive. I managed to track down the prosecutor involved in the court-martial. A military policeman who actually shot Perry during one of these phases of the manhunt. And at the time, this was a really big story out there in Indian Burma. There actually is a lot of documentation of what occurred. It just took a lot of elbow grease to find it.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: You couldn't interview Herman Perry. The accounts of what he did and why he did it, they're drawn from documents and accounts from that time. Were you ever able to figure it out, what did happen with him?</s>Mr. BRENDAN KOERNER (Writer, Slate.com): I really think that the story's both more complex and more simple than I think a lot of people would assume. On a very basic level, he was a jungle freak-out. There were a lot of them. He experienced what would be now be called PTSD. He was traumatized, he was a psychiatric casualty. And that led to the tragic circumstances that ended in Lieutenant Harold Katy's(ph) murder. So I think that's part of it. But also you have to realize that he became a folk hero to a lot of people along the road, especially African-American soldiers. So there was a lot of mythology that grew up around this decidedly ordinary guy caught up in extraordinary circumstances.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Brendan Koerner, his new book is "Now the Hell Will Start," it's the story of Herman Perry and the greatest manhunt of World War II. Brendan, thank you.</s>Mr. BRENDAN KOERNER (Writer, Slate.com): Thanks a million, Alex.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: You can find a link to a slide show about Private Herman Perry and the Burma Road at our website, npr.org. NPR's Day to Day continues.

What do you do if you don't have a credit score, bank account, or credit card? José Quiñonez tells NPR's Rachel Martin about his organization that helps people become "financially visible."

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Time now for our series Hanging On where we take a look at the economic pressures of American life. This week - the financially invisible, meaning people who don't have a credit card or checking or savings account or a credit score, people who are invisible to banks and credit institutions, which can make it hard to get loans for things like a house or a car or a business. Jose Quinonez found a solution to that problem. He is the founder and CEO of the Mission Asset Fund, and he just won a MacArthur Fellowship for his program helping people become financially visible. He joins us now in our studios here in Washington. Thanks so much for coming in.</s>JOSE QUINONEZ: Thank you.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right, how does this work? You came up with this idea and you called it lending circles. What are these, and how does it help people become financially visible?</s>JOSE QUINONEZ: Right, so in immigrant communities, there's a rich tradition of people coming together to lend and save money. This is an activity that is pretty widespread and it's a pretty global phenomena and has been happening for a millennia. What we did was basically recognize that activity as bonafide financial activity that just needed to be formalized. And the way we did that was we asked people to sign promissory notes so that they can then participate in the program, and then we then report that activity to the credit bureau. So that's how we're helping people build and establish their credit scores by reporting on this activity that's already taking place in the community.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: OK, so let's back up. So this is an idea where people in an extended family or neighborhood, a community, get together, actually pool their money.</s>JOSE QUINONEZ: Right.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And that creates a fund that then down the road anyone can withdraw from.</s>JOSE QUINONEZ: Well, so let's talk about a typical case. You may have 10 people, and informally it could be your neighbors, could be your, you know, relatives, could be your co-workers. And then they'll all agree to, say, put in a hundred dollars into the pot, so you then collect that thousand dollars. And then they agree on who takes that thousand dollars first, and they do that in rotation until everybody has a chance in getting that thousand dollars. Again, this activity has been going on for millenia. What we did differently was we asked them, OK, well, by signing a promissory note, we basically transformed it from being invisible to being invisible. We transformed it from being informal to being formal so that the financial systems of today can actually recognize that activity. And so we put ourselves in the middle of that transaction, and then we become the loan servicer and then also become the data furnisher to the credit bureaus.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So someone whose only lending experience is through one of these lending circles, now if they went to go get a mortgage...</s>JOSE QUINONEZ: Exactly.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: ...The bank would recognize that as being a solid credit history.</s>JOSE QUINONEZ: Exactly because in our economy today, you need a credit score to do anything. You need a credit report to rent an apartment. I mean, some places you need a credit report to even get a job. And so without that credit report, it's extremely difficult to actually become a full participant in our economy.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The lending circles that you create, are these all circles of people who have to be in the same geographic area or could you connect an individual in San Francisco with another individual in Washington, D.C.?</s>JOSE QUINONEZ: Yeah, well, theoretically we can, and I think in the future we'll do that, but right now we're keeping it very local, you know, because we want that human interaction to happen 'cause that's actually is a very important element to the program.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Why? Why is that so important?</s>JOSE QUINONEZ: Because people, when they come together in what we call, you know, a lending circle formation session, they have to decide on how much. Is it a hundred dollars or $50, $75, $200? And then they'll start to decide who goes first, who goes second, and sometimes they do that by drawing numbers from a hat. And then they negotiate and it's like, oh, I actually need number four because April I need that money for this or I actually want the last number so that I can, you know, save it for a down payment or something. So there's, like, a community conversation about money and they're talking about their goals and aspirations for what they're going to do with this. And then that solidifies it. That gets people more committed. You know, they see each other eye to eye, right, and I think that's one of the elements of our success is, like, we create this human connection across people.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So this grant's a big deal. You get $625,000.</s>JOSE QUINONEZ: Yes.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What are you going to do with that money?</s>JOSE QUINONEZ: Oh, well, you know, I'm going to take my family to Disneyland several times a year, I think. No - why - I, you know, in all seriousness, I, you know, we're going to do more of what we're doing. We're very excited by expanding lending circles throughout the country with - to more communities. And a lot more of those individuals, they just need an opportunity to turn their lives around or to actually continue on with their lives. And so we want to be there to help them.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Jose Quinonez is the founder and chief executive officer of the Mission Asset Fund. Thanks so much for talking with us.</s>JOSE QUINONEZ: All right, thank you.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And congratulations.</s>JOSE QUINONEZ: (Laughter) Thank you.

Mary Louise Kelly speaks to Vicki Shabo, Vice President of the National Partnership for Women and Families on the wage gap for women who are Latina.

MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: This is Hanging On, our series about the American middle class looking at the economic pressures of American life in 2016. We all know there's a gender gap when it comes to pay in this country. That disparity is even worse for the 10 million Latinas in the American workforce. The average woman working full-time earns 80 cents on the dollar paid to men. Latinas earn just 54 cents on the dollar. And that wage gap persists even as the number of Latino-owned businesses is growing and as more and more get college degrees. The question is why.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: And to help answer it, we've called on Vicki Shabo, vice president of the National Partnership for Women and Families. Hi, Vicki.</s>VICKI SHABO: Hi, Mary Louise. It's great to be with you.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: We're glad to have you with us. So 54 cents on the dollar - that's a huge gap. What explains it?</s>VICKI SHABO: It is a huge gap. So if the wage gap were eliminated, on average, a Latina who is working full time year-round would have enough money for approximately 193 more weeks of food for herself and her family - that's more than three and a half years' worth - 27 additional months of rent. This is real bread and butter and - you know, the middle class aspect. This is preventing people from rising from one economic status to the next. And we need to unpack what this is about. I mean, this is about differences in jobs that people are holding, different education levels, different places that you might live in the country. And it is about implicit and explicit bias as well. And for Latinas, it is both a double-bind of gender and ethnicity as well.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: When you talk to Latina women, what kind of stories do you hear about why they think that this wage gap is just so unequal?</s>VICKI SHABO: Well, I mean, I think, you know, for each person's experience, it's a bit unique. But certainly stories of bias on the job, not being willing to ask for the raises that you might deserve, certainly not knowing what your co-workers are being paid, so not even knowing to ask and being afraid to - afraid to ask a supervisor for a raise or to remedy an inequity that might exist. So if you think about the compounding of access to quality jobs and lack of access to the supports that allow you to make ends meet, to be there for your family and to sort of rise and advance in your job and your career trajectory, these are all multiple problems that are being layered on top of one another.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: One of the factors here is education. That's presumably across the board, whether you're talking Latino or not. Unpack specifically how it plays out for Latino workers.</s>VICKI SHABO: Education, for sure, is a factor in pay that you earn and job opportunities going forward. So if we can increase college graduation rates, that will increase pay over time. But we know, for example, that women who have college degrees are paid less than men with associate's degrees on average.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: So it's this whole spectrum, everything from leveling the educational playing field to federal and state-led policy changes to just better child care and other...</s>VICKI SHABO: Exactly.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: ...Opportunities to let people work.</s>VICKI SHABO: Exactly. And elder care is one thing we haven't talked about, but certainly Latinos are more likely to be in multigenerational families. And so if you think about what it means to be a full-time worker who is advancing in a job, in a career, who's available for the kind of work that comes along, you've got to factor in, you know, child care, elder care, family responsibilities. And that's true across ethnicity and race, and across gender, increasingly.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: This issue's come up on the campaign trail in this election cycle. Do you see - can you point to any sign that gives you hope that four years from now, we might be having a somewhat different conversation?</s>VICKI SHABO: Well, it gives me hope that both candidates in the general election race and the people around them have talked about women in the workplace. I think there are very different visions that have been put forward about what it takes to address the challenges of working women. But the fact that it's on the agenda, the fact that there are Democrats and Republicans talking about this issue in Congress as well gives me hope that we will see progress.</s>MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST: That's Vicki Shabo of the National Partnership for Women and Families talking about the Latina wage gap. Vicki, thanks for coming by.</s>VICKI SHABO: Thanks for having me.

Hillary Clinton has yet to respond to a video showing Donald Trump making lewd comments about women. The two candidates will meet on the debate stage Sunday night for the second presidential debate.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: It has been an extraordinary 48 hours in an already extraordinary presidential campaign. Late Friday, a 2005 tape surfaced of Donald Trump, the Republican nominee, talking about women in vulgar and sexually aggressive terms. Republican leaders started breaking away from him in droves, plunging his party into chaos with only 30 days left before the election. And did we mention there's a presidential debate tonight? NPR political correspondent Mara Liasson is on the line now to talk through it all.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Good morning, Mara.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: Good morning, Rachel.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Where does the GOP stand on Trump this morning?</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: Right now, more than two dozen elected Republicans are calling on Trump to step aside, including two Senate candidates from battleground states, Darryl Glenn from Colorado and Joe Heck of Nevada. There are Republicans who are saying they will no longer vote for him, but most Republicans are condemning his remarks without unendorsing Trump. And House Speaker Paul Ryan, who has been twisting himself into knots about Trump for months, said he was sickened by the audiotape, but he has not withdrawn his support. And at a Ryan rally in Wisconsin yesterday where Trump was supposed to attend but didn't come, Ryan got heckled by Trump supporters. And in another sign of how deep the split is inside the GOP, there's a new poll out today by Morning Consult - it's been taken since the audiotape came out. Three-quarters of Republican voters think the party should continue to stand by Trump.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: But this is different. Why? I mean, we've heard Donald Trump make incendiary remarks for months. We've heard him disparage women before. How is this different?</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: That's a really good question. This is different in degree but not in kind. It's cruder and lewder, but there have been so many other offensive, denigrating comments that he's made. This does seem to be a tipping point. It crossed so many lines. He's bragging about sexual assault, about grabbing women's genitals, about how when you're a star, he says, you can do anything with women - talk about a rigged system.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: But ironically, this tape, which might be the undoing of Donald Trump, came in a conversation with a relative of Jeb Bush's. You know, Billy Bush, who's the host of "Access Hollywood," who's on that tape with Trump, is a cousin of Jeb Bush's. So you have to wonder - why, during the primaries, the Jeb Bush oppo research people didn't just pick up the phone and called Jeb's cousin?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So if there were conversations happening about how to replace Donald Trump on the ticket - I mean, is that even possible at this point?</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: It's very hard, almost impossible, according to election lawyers that NPR has talked to. The rules say you can get a candidate off the ballot in cases of death, incapacitation or declination, meaning he would voluntarily step down. And, as you said, Donald Trump has said he has no intention of dropping out. He said, the media and the establishment want him to but he will never abandon his supporters. And don't forget - voting has already begun in more than 10 states.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Yeah. So this story consumed a lot of attention over the past few hours. But there was a revelation on the Clinton side, too, this release of emails by WikiLeaks. What did we learn from that?</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: We learned - by the way, these are hacked emails of John Podesta, her campaign chairman's email account. This came on the same day that the administration formally accused Russian security agencies of authorizing the hacking of Democratic Party officials in order to affect the U.S. elections and hurt Hillary Clinton. In these alleged excerpts of her private speeches to Wall Street banks, her paid speeches, she talks about how she's for free trade and open borders. She's sympathetic to bankers. And these tapes are - these excerpts are problematic. You can see why she didn't want them released during the primaries when she was battling Bernie Sanders. This really underscores her weaknesses with honesty and trustworthiness. It could hurt her with young people, with Sanders supporters, blue-collar Democrats. And she will certainly be asked about this tonight.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So just briefly, Mara, let's think about tonight - lots of people going to watch because the stakes are really high. What are you going to be looking for?</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: This is a very tricky format. It's a town hall debate. Ordinary people, in addition to the moderators, will be asking questions. And that makes it harder for the candidates to attack each other when an ordinary voter is asking you to talk about how you will make their lives better. So I'm watching to see how both candidates navigate this format.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: NPR national political correspondent Mara Liasson. Thanks so much, Mara.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: Thank you.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: As we mentioned, the second presidential debate is tonight. Our colleague Michel Martin will walk through the dramatic events of the last 48 hours in the run-up to the debate. That special will air tonight on many NPR stations from 8 to 9 Eastern Time.

Latest on the impacts of Hurricane Matthew, from Tybee Island off the coast of Georgia, where some residents decided to ride out the storm.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Hurricane Matthew roared across the southeastern United States this weekend, leaving a trail of severe flooding and at least 10 deaths. And in some places where the storm has already passed, officials say it's too dangerous for people to return to their homes. As NPR's Rae Ellen Bichell reports, Tybee Island off the coast of Georgia is one of those places.</s>RAE ELLEN BICHELL, BYLINE: Police cars block the one road that leads to Tybee Island, about 20 miles from Savannah. The power's still out and there's water and wind damage. Most of the 3,000 residents can't return yet. But some, like bar owner Calvin Ratterree, never left.</s>CALVIN RATTERREE: I was going to stay no matter what, and it ended up turning into a party. (Laughter) It wasn't planned, but it happened.</s>RAE ELLEN BICHELL, BYLINE: The night of the storm, he kept the bar open until 9 p.m., hanging out with others who ignored the mandatory evacuation order. Then around 3 a.m., he says, the storm broke loose.</s>CALVIN RATTERREE: Oh, the wind got bad, bad. And also you started hearing stuff flying. And it just - yeah, it was ugly.</s>RAE ELLEN BICHELL, BYLINE: Tybee Island was predicted to be the worst-hit part of Georgia.</s>JASON BUELTERMAN: I'm breathing a sigh of relief from what I saw. It's unbelievable that I'm standing right here and not seeing massive damage.</s>RAE ELLEN BICHELL, BYLINE: That's Tybee Mayor Jason Buelterman. After flying over the island in a helicopter Saturday to survey the damage, he was relieved because the sand dunes helped to minimize the destruction.</s>JASON BUELTERMAN: So that's why the dunes are so important, because if you have that surge, that's what knocks houses down.</s>RAE ELLEN BICHELL, BYLINE: As the hurricane approached, there were major concerns of widespread damage across the Southeast. But in many places, like on Tybee Island, the devastation ended up being not as bad as feared. Still, the cleanup is expected to take weeks or months. Rae Ellen Bichell, NPR News, Savannah.

How will Trump respond to his 1995 tax records being out in the open? And when the vice presidential candidates meet on the debate stage will the echo their running mates?

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: We're joined now by NPR national political correspondent Mara Liasson who's going to help us figure out what all this means for the campaign and look ahead to the vice presidential debate coming up this week. Good morning, Mara.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: Good morning, Rachel.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Some pretty big revelations - we just heard about Trump's tax record from 1995. How do you think he's going to play all this?</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: That's a good question. He, as you just heard, he issued a statement saying that this is - he was legally required to - he paid no more tax than he was legally required to pay. But as Donald Trump might say, this is an example of a rigged system. It was legal. He has said many times that he took advantage of the laws of the country. And that interesting statement about how he knows the tax system better than anyone and only he can fix it, I think now you're going to get a lot of questions to Donald Trump about whether he plans to get rid of the loopholes that benefit wealthy investors that allowed him to do this. Is that in his tax plan or not? You already heard from the Clinton campaign. They issued statements saying this shows he's a lousy businessman. They say he lost almost a billion dollars, stiffed small businesses, laid off workers and then paid no taxes. So you're going to hear this again and again certainly in the upcoming debates.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: This is capping off what was a pretty tough week for Donald Trump coming off that first presidential debate with Hillary Clinton. What do you know? What can you discern about how his camp is trying to shift its focus, if they are?</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: They have laid out a number of lines of attack. He's given some speeches that are really full-throated, populous speeches, talking about a corrupt system, elites, Hillary and her Wall Street donors. He even imitated her stumbling, almost collapsing at the 9/11 ceremony. He has said she's crazy. She should be in prison. He's suggested she wasn't faithful to Bill Clinton in addition to bringing up some of Bill Clinton's infidelities in the past and saying she was somehow complicit in that. So he's got...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: It's getting more personal.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: ...A lot - getting more personal. He's got a lot of lines of attacks out there. We'll see what he brings up in the next debates.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Let's look forward to the vice presidential debate. This is happening Tuesday. Mike Pence, Tim Kaine will go head to head. We haven't heard a whole lot from either of them so far. Do you think they're just going to echo what their running mates have been saying?</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: Well, they usually do. The interesting thing about this debate is these two men, Mike Pence and Tim Kaine, are stylistically so different from the top of the ticket, and they've gotten very, very little attention. Pence, in particular, is as calm and cool and collected as Donald Trump is bombastic. And usually in vice presidential debates, those candidates are stand-ins for the principles. They're not there to debate their own positions or records. But they are going to be asked - Mike Pence, at least, will be asked about everything that Donald Trump has ever said and done; same with Tim Kaine. And the other thing that's interesting this year is usually vice presidential candidates are the attack dogs. They are the ones who are willing to say things in maybe a harsher tone than the principles are willing to do. This year, that is not happening.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: But because these two men aren't the attack dogs, does that mean that we could perhaps get a more substantive picture about what a Trump or Clinton presidency would look like?</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: Yes, I think we might. But there is another wrinkle to that, which is that Trump himself has said that no one speaks for him but himself. And that means that if Mike Pence tries to sand down some of the rough edges of Trumpism, it's going to be a problem. For instance, in - with global warming, Mike Pence has said that he believes human activity does cause global warming. Well, Kellyanne Conway has said that global warming is real but not man-made but the bottom...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: That's the Trump campaign spokeswoman, yeah.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: That's the Trump campaign manager. But Donald Trump himself has said two things - one, global warming is a Chinese hoax and that he never said that global warming was a Chinese hoax. So I think there'll be certainly an attempt to get the vice presidential candidates to clarify what the top of the ticket means and wants to do.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Which means we might get more people than usual watching the old vice presidential debate. NPR's Mara Liasson will be watching for all of us. Thanks so much, Mara.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: Thank you.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: On Tuesday, NPR will be hosting live coverage of the vice presidential debate on many NPR stations, along with live fact-checking at npr.org.

Shaun Corbett and Rob Dance have an unlikely friendship — a black barbershop owner and a white police captain in a city reeling from a recent police shooting. They speak with NPR's Rachel Martin.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: We're going to take you now to a barber shop in Charlotte, N.C.</s>SHAUN CORBETT: Hey, what's up?</s>ROB DANCE: Good morning.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Hi.</s>SHAUN CORBETT: Hey, how you doing?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Shaun?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Inside, the owner of the place, a black guy with tattoos on his neck wearing a black baseball hat, is sitting next to a white police officer who's in uniform. They're huddled around the officer's cellphone, watching video from the protests a couple weeks ago after the police shooting of Keith Lamont Scott.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What was that?</s>ROB DANCE: Oh, I was just showing him some clips of downtown when we were down there and...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: During the protests?</s>ROB DANCE: ...Having all the problems.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Captain Rob Dance wears his blond hair in a high and tight buzz cut, and he comes in every once in a while for a haircut or just to catch up with the owner Shaun Corbett. Their friendship started out as an experiment based on this theory Shaun had that if police officers knew the people they served - really knew them - it could change behavior on both sides.</s>SHAUN CORBETT: I have yet to see a officer shoot someone that they know or they've had positive encounters with. I am 100 percent certain that if I get pulled over by Rob, he's not going to shoot me in the street.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: It was with that in mind that Shaun Corbett started the program he calls Cops and Barbers, and it's a lot of different things. He brings in police officers to schools. He holds pizza dinners with teenage kids and cops from the area. He also just opens his doors to police officers and encourages them to come in and hang out. Shaun Corbett remembers how awkward it was in the beginning, though.</s>SHAUN CORBETT: You probably don't even notice this. I can remember when you first start coming in here, people's kids wouldn't even talk to you. They would go and get right close to their parent when he would come in. Like, they would go just get close to their parent.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: How did that make you feel, Rob?</s>ROB DANCE: Well, I mean, you know, it makes you realize that it doesn't matter how you feel about certain things. Or it doesn't matter how much you are a part of the problem or how little of a part of the problem you are, it's a reality.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So what does this kind of dialogue that you want to create, how does it - what does it look like in reality?</s>SHAUN CORBETT: Well, exactly just what you see right here today, what me and Rob were doing before you walked in. We was just - it's conversations. We take the officers from that neighborhood and pair them up with kids from that neighborhood, and we take them out to dinner. That's the first stage.</s>SHAUN CORBETT: And it's actually funny because everybody's sitting there stone-faced. Nobody's saying a word. But by the time the food come out and everybody start eating, you realize that I love Cam Newton. I love Cam Newton. I go to the games every Sunday. You want to come with me? And so it's - it starts the conversation to realize that we're all human.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Have all of your officers bought into this?</s>ROB DANCE: Well, no, obviously. I mean, I don't think you're ever going to have a hundred percent buy-in. I think that it - one of the main problems when you start talking about race and some of those issues is some of the common things that you hear is, I'm not part of the problem. I don't have a problem with race. That's really where the problem is.</s>ROB DANCE: I'm sending a bunch of young officers that really don't understand, a large group of them at least, some of the historical problems with race, some of the problems that we face in our community - I'm sending them out to address these problems without any knowledge. And when they go out there and then they are faced with people who, many times, dislike them and are frustrated with them because of what's happened in the last 10 years and there are a hundred encounters in the place where they live, the officers are human, too. And for them not to leave at the end of the day feeling frustrated the way that they were treated in the neighborhood, you know, you can have tensions build very, very easily.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Well, let me ask you, Shaun, have you gotten pushback from people in your own community? Neighbors, kids, being like, Shaun, why do you want me to go hang out with cops? And you're just, like, a PR machine for the cops?</s>SHAUN CORBETT: Well, I mean, at first - and that's with anything new. But I think my reputation in the community is strong enough. See, like, I was in the community even before Cops and Barbers. I'm in six years of business, so I've been doing a book bag drives, turkey drives. So generally, when I kind of say something, people are like OK, I don't know. But...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Yeah.</s>SHAUN CORBETT: ...Let's see what happens.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: At one point in our conversation, Shaun Corbett sort of resets, as if to underscore how close he and Captain Rob Dance have become.</s>SHAUN CORBETT: Rob's my guy. Like, he's really my guy. Like, I text him, check in, how you doing? Like, well, OK, I'm going to tell you this story.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Tell it.</s>SHAUN CORBETT: And this is just the funniest thing. Every year I take my kids to - we do the summer family trip.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: He goes on to say that his kids each got to bring friends on this trip. His son's friend came over on a Saturday morning. They packed up the car, but Shaun was renting a car for the long drive, so they drove over to the rental agency and piled into the new rental car.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: It's evening by the time they're sitting there ready to go, and Shaun looks over at his son's friend and asks him where his bag is. The kid tells him he's left his bag in the trunk of Shaun's car, which is now locked up behind the big gate at the rental agency, which has now closed for the day. Shaun mulls his options.</s>SHAUN CORBETT: My car is locked in the thing. They've been closed for three hours. And so I'm thinking - and I was like, man, I can climb the fence. And then I'm like, OK, that might not go well. So I was like, you know what, let me call Rob.</s>ROB DANCE: Black guy with tattoos on my neck, it's not going to look good if I'm climbing a fence.</s>SHAUN CORBETT: Yeah, so I call Rob and I say, hey, Rob, man, I got a issue. First he laughs. Like, he thought it was, like, the funniest thing. And so he said, well, what time do you want to come? I said, well, about 8 o'clock. So he's like, all right, I'll have somebody there. So when I get there, not only does he have two officers there, he got the sergeant on duty. They got their lights blaring. And literally, the sergeant helps me climb the fence.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Uh-uh.</s>SHAUN CORBETT: Helped me climb the fence.</s>SHAUN CORBETT: I go to the car, get the suitcases out. I'm actually taking the suitcases and handing them to the sergeant on duty over the fence. Like, this is, like, literally some breaking and entering-type situation. So - but the long story short is if I wouldn't have called him, that would have probably been a different situation.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Things feel different in Charlotte. After the death of Keith Lamont Scott and the protests that followed, the past couple of weeks have been traumatic for this city.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So you started this whole kind of dialogue, this program, two years ago. What did this shooting change for you, the death of Keith Lamont Scott?</s>SHAUN CORBETT: Well, definitely - first of all, my prayers go out to the families, all the families involved, the injured officers, Keith Lamont Scott's family, everybody. Like, we start there. But it just lets me know that, you know, there's more work to be done, which I already knew. But, like, someone asked me one time, well, do you think that Cops and Barbers was a failure because of what happened? No, you can't gauge that 'cause think about how many situations probably didn't happen because these officers are now knowing people in the community. Just think about how many situations could have - that have been prevented that we don't even know.</s>ROB DANCE: Although it's been a challenging few weeks in Charlotte, you know, I was downtown on the police side. Shaun was down there with the protesters, you know, frustrated with some of the things that were happening. And we're friends.</s>SHAUN CORBETT: You just got to continue to work. Like, that's the thing. You have to continue to work and lay the foundation and blueprint for your kids to take over because me and Rob, we're not going to end all of this. But what we just do - you do our part. And hopefully you touch enough people to invoke them to want to continue building that gap because, you know, war is won over a series of small battles.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And with that, the two men go in for the classic man hug and embrace with a couple of friendly slaps on the back. And they make plans for their next event.</s>ROB DANCE: Tell Danny (ph) to call me and we'll touch base. We'll see you, guys.</s>SHAUN CORBETT: I'll have - matter of fact, Rob, I'll have Danny call you Monday.

Hungarians vote Sunday on whether they will allow the European Union to force them to accept refugees.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Hungarians are voting today on one single question - do they want the European Union to force them to accept refugees from the more than 1 million who've flooded into Europe? It's the third referendum this year by an EU member state seeking to strike down the EU's authority on refugees and other issues. Human rights advocates say the vote could empower the growing number of people who mistreat refugees in Hungary. NPR's Soraya Sarhaddi Nelson joins us from outside a polling station in the capital city, Budapest. Good morning, Soraya.</s>SORAYA SARHADDI NELSON, BYLINE: Good morning, Rachel.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Tell us what the scene is where you are.</s>SORAYA SARHADDI NELSON, BYLINE: I'm in Budapest's main business district, and we're in a park here across from this polling station where there's been a pretty steady turnout this morning for the second-ever referendum in this country about the EU. Basically, this referendum was called by Prime Minister Viktor Orban, who spent a reported $40 million on misleading billboards, mailed leaflets and letters to voters about the impact of migrants and refugees on this country. And the polls are suggesting that an overwhelming number of those who are going to come out today and vote are going to vote no against the EU. But despite the steady turnout that we're seeing here at this particular polling station, the state is reporting that only 16 percent of eligible voters have turned out this morning. So it doesn't seem that Orban is going to be getting the 50 percent needed to make this referendum valid.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What's the motivation for calling the referendum? I mean, you say the prime minister has spent a lot of money on these ads. Is this just politically the right thing for him to do?</s>SORAYA SARHADDI NELSON, BYLINE: Yes, absolutely 'cause if we're talking about a referendum that isn't valid and we're talking about a question that isn't really even valid - I mean, the European Union hasn't mandated any quotas or said that they're going to resettle people here. And in fact, most of the people, the 160,000 refugees that member states had agreed to take in last year, haven't even been moved yet.</s>SORAYA SARHADDI NELSON, BYLINE: But the thing is Prime Minister Orban says that Hungary needs to be protected from Muslims, from terrorists, and that Brussels needs to be kept in line, that they shouldn't be bossing Hungary around. But as you mentioned, this is definitely a political ploy. And when you talk to political analysts or even opponents here, they say that this is basically an informal kickoff to the Fidesz party, and that's the party that the prime minister belongs to. You know, they're a kickoff, basically, for the campaign so that they can maintain an absolute majority in the next parliamentary elections 18 months from now.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Just briefly, Soraya, what's been happening with asylum-seekers in Hungary compared to last summer? We all remember those pictures of those hundreds of thousands of migrants pouring across that southern border.</s>SORAYA SARHADDI NELSON, BYLINE: Well, since then, fences have gone up along the Serbian border, and so most of these migrants and refugees are being kept out. Those that do come in illegally are hunted down. They're prosecuted. They're violently ejected in some cases. And so they're - these migrants are stuck in horribly poor conditions at the border, unable to come in. And so it's not a really good situation for them. And in fact, there is talk about building a second fence along the Serbian border because the prime minister claims it's needed not just to keep people out but to also create, like, a holding area, if you will, for the thousands of migrants who are trying to come in. And they have prisoners in one prison actually working extra shifts to prepare razor wire for the fence while the police are recruiting 3,000 new unofficial border hunters, as they're being called.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: NPR's Soraya Sarhaddi Nelson from Budapest, Hungary. Thanks so much, Soraya.</s>SORAYA SARHADDI NELSON, BYLINE: You're welcome, Rachel.

Amnesty International reports that wealthy countries are not doing enough to support refugees. NPR's Rachel Martin speaks with Secretary General Silal Shetty about what needs to be done.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: There are more than 21 million refugees around the globe searching for a safe place to live. And according to a new report, from Amnesty International, just 10 countries are hosting more than half of them. The report finds that the world's wealthiest nations are doing little to address the refugee crisis, which is the worst one since World War II. Salil Shetty is the secretary general of Amnesty International. He joins me on the line from the BBC in London.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Thanks so much for being with us.</s>SALIL SHETTY: Thank you.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Which countries have taken in the most refugees in this crisis?</s>SALIL SHETTY: The crisis has got two, sort of, broad elements to it. On the one hand, it's, of course, what we see in the Middle East right now. So Syria is really what's been in the news a great deal. But let's not forget that there are some other long-term conflicts and crises, like Afghanistan, Iraq, Somalia, Sudan.</s>SALIL SHETTY: So if you think about these 10 countries, they're, essentially, the countries which are neighbors to the countries in conflict. So as far as the Syrian crisis is concerned, Turkey is, by far, the largest host for Syrian refugees. But Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, all of these, host very large numbers of Syrian refugees. Eighty-six percent of the Syrian refugees, approximately, are in these neighboring countries. And then, if you look at Sudan, Somalia, then - you know, Kenya is one of the big host countries for the Somalia, Sudanese refugees. Also, if you take Afghanistan, Pakistan would be the single biggest and Iran as well.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So how do you change that? I mean, how do you incentivize wealthier countries to take in more refugees?</s>SALIL SHETTY: One of the early calls that Amnesty International made is that, you know, this is a global crisis of proportions we've not seen since the second world war. So it needs a global response. So finally, we had a leaders meeting of the United Nations just a couple of weeks ago. But unfortunately, it was a spectacular failure. There was not a single binding, precise target which came out of that. We need groups of countries who are more willing to come forward and start taking people in. Also, like - and we've seen this. Canada, for example, has already accepted 25,000 more Syrian refugees. Germany has accepted 1 million. So it's really boiled down to a leadership choice.</s>SALIL SHETTY: The surveys we've done with the public, you know, it completely busts this myth that the local population in these rich countries don't want to accept refugees. Like, if you take the U.S., for example, our surveys show that over 70 percent of the U.S. population do welcome refugees. In fact, 15 percent are ready to take them into their own houses. So I think it's indicative that, you know, the public is ahead of the leaders.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Although you mentioned Germany, which, in Europe, has been the country to accept the most refugees from the Syrian conflict. The chancellor there, Angela Merkel, has suffered a real political hit because of that.</s>SALIL SHETTY: She has, and there's no question about it. But, you know, you can't change things overnight. So we need long-term process of educating the population, getting them to hear the facts because what happens is that the third or so who are against refugees coming in are very vocal. And they're creating a whole atmosphere of fear, which is totally not based on the facts.</s>SALIL SHETTY: I mean, one of the things I always tell people is that since I've spent time in these camps, I've not met a single woman, man or child who's told me, from Syria, that they would like to come to Europe. It's not a lifestyle choice, you know, to traverse the Mediterranean where thousands of people died through drownings. Or, you know - most of these European countries have signed on to the 1951 Refugee Convention, so they're simply in violation of that.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: When you talk about solutions to this, you say you just need more wealthy countries to be willing to resettle refugees. And you do point to Canada as a country that has been successful in that. They've taken in more than 30,000 Syrians since 2015, compared to the U.S., which has taken in a little over 12,000 Syrian refugees. What is it about Canada's system that works?</s>SALIL SHETTY: At the global level, the problem is we don't have a system. You know, right now, we have a completely ad hoc process where the neighboring countries simply end up carrying this burden for decades. So our proposal is that instead of 10 countries taking the load, can we share this across 60 to 90 countries on an objective basis - you know, depending on your size of your country, your population, your wealth?</s>SALIL SHETTY: But in the case of Canada, it is really a political choice. We've been told that Canadians don't like refugees. They don't want refugees. So what happened suddenly - they suddenly changed their mind? That's not true. I mean, it was really Trudeau and, you know, their leadership. And they said that this is what Canadian values are about. And really, you know, the U.S. is another country where - it's a country that was created by people coming in from outside. I mean, if you look at what Ellis Island and the Statue of Liberty is all about, it's about creating a - you know, a diverse, inclusive country, which has become so powerful because of its diversity. But, you know, in practice, the U.S. is hardly taking anybody.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What about aid, though? The United States, for example, has given more than $5 billion toward the Syrian refugee crisis. That's a lot of money. Is that not making a difference?</s>SALIL SHETTY: So - I mean, absolutely it does. And don't forget, again, that, you know, a lot of these are pledges, you know, these announcements which come in meetings. You finally look at what the actual money that goes across - it's close to nothing. But the main point I'd make is, humanitarian financing, very important as it is, is not a substitute for resettling people and receiving refugees.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Salil Shetty is the secretary general of Amnesty International.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Thank you so much.</s>SALIL SHETTY: Thank you.

The New York Times has reported that Trump declared a $916 million loss on his 1995 income tax returns. NPR's Rachel Martin talks to Russ Buettner, one of the reporters who investigated the story.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: It sounds like a story out of a movie. An envelope from an anonymous source arrived on reporter Susanne Craig's desk at The New York Times last month. The return address marked Trump Tower. Inside were Donald Trump's 1995 tax returns. The New York Times revealed their findings and posted a copy of Trump's tax records on its website last night. The documents show that in 1995 Donald Trump declared a $916 million loss. Here to talk more about all this is Russ Buettner of The New York Times, one of the reporters who investigated this story. Russ, welcome to the program.</s>RUSS BUETTNER: Thanks, Rachel.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: He declared a $916 million loss. What does that mean in terms of whether or not he paid federal income taxes?</s>RUSS BUETTNER: Well, it's essentially like a gift card from the government for almost a billion dollars. It means that the next billion dollars, $916 million, he earned over any time over the next 15 years after that or three years before that he could collect without paying any federal income taxes on it or any New York state income taxes.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: But of course it's not definitive, right, so he could have paid those taxes.</s>RUSS BUETTNER: He - well, I guess he could elect to on his own if he wanted to optionally or there's a possibility that he never made that much taxable income. There are so many other write-offs that are available to real estate people. That may be the case. So it is hard to tell. It is a snapshot in time.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You and your fellow reporters, though, spoke to tax experts before publishing this story. Was what Donald Trump did legal?</s>RUSS BUETTNER: It was legal to the best of our knowledge. There's nothing in the returns itself that would suggest that there was anything illegal about it. It is a benefit that is available to people own - who own certain kinds of businesses in certain corporate structures. It was of a magnitude that none of them had ever seen or heard of before.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: It's a pretty limited picture, though. What exactly was in that envelope, and do you have any idea where it came from?</s>RUSS BUETTNER: We don't have any idea where it came from. I don't - we don't really think it came from Trump Tower. It was just the first page of his state returns for New York, which is almost identical to what the federal tax return looks like for the state of Connecticut and the state of New Jersey. And there were just some very big numbers on there. I can kind of explain one oddity that fascinated us if you'd like.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Yeah, sure.</s>RUSS BUETTNER: So the numbers were so large that the digits to the left that, you know, put it into the hundreds of millions of dollars were of a slightly different typeface and in a slightly different position - you can see that on the documents on our website - than the rest of the numbers on those columns. And that was something that troubled us, that really gave us pause. Does this really mean something? And when my colleague David Barstow traveled to Florida, showed them to the tax accountant who had handled these documents, that was the first thing he recalled was that his program wouldn't allow numbers that large. And he had to take it out of his printer and type it using an old typewriter to add those digits.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: There's been a lot of speculation about Donald Trump's foreign investment holdings and the extent of his charitable giving. Did you learn anything about that from these documents?</s>RUSS BUETTNER: You - there is nothing on that. No, that would be on the supporting schedules whether he'd earned - what his, you know, income sources were. And I doubt that that would show up. It would have to show up as business revenue buried into some sort of supporting schedule. And there was not the schedule for deductions that might show charitable giving. What is noteworthy to us is that there are, as everyone knows, several optional small charitable contributions you can make to a veterans organization, a wildlife preservation fund and such things by checking a box on a tax return, and he did not check any of those boxes.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: How has Donald Trump and his campaign, how have they responded this morning?</s>RUSS BUETTNER: The first thing we got last night after we sent questions to them was a letter from their attorney threatening to sue us and suggesting we were doing something illegal by publishing these. And then a while later, we got a rather lengthy response, which I believe we posted in its entirety on our website, saying that - not confirming the numbers, not denying the numbers, saying that Donald Trump had a responsibility to his company and his family to pay as little of taxes as possible, that he understands the tax code better than anyone and therefore is best situated to make appropriate changes to it and also suggesting something about Hillary Clinton's misdeeds being of a greater magnitude.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: No doubt there will be more questions about just what he plans to fix in the tax code. Russ Buettner reported this story for The New York Times along with Susanne Craig, David Barstow and Megan Twohey. Russ, thanks so much for taking the time.</s>RUSS BUETTNER: Thanks for having me.

If you rely on an insight from your daily horoscopes, you may have been looking at the wrong sign this whole time.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Earlier this year, NASA wrote a little blog post that noted a big change which has gotten some folks pretty stressed out. For those of you out there who pay attention to astrology, NASA has some knowledge to drop on your crystal ball. It seems that when the ancient Babylonians made the Zodiac over 3,000 years ago there were actually 13 constellations. But since they had a 12-month calendar, they ditched the last one to keep things organized.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: NASA also pointed out that the Earth's axis no longer even points in the same direction as when those constellations were drawn. This means that the signs as we know them all have different date ranges. So all you fussy Virgos - some of you are actually generous Leos. So stop stressing about everything, you have no excuse.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: But wait, you might be asking, what does NASA have to do with astrology? Nothing, says the agency. It released a statement saying, quote, "we didn't change any zodiac signs. We did the math. NASA studies astronomy, not astrology." In other words, no one at NASA cares if you just went from Scorpio to Sagittarius. Seriously, Mercury must be in retrograde.

The NFL announced last week it will invest $100 million to advance concussion research. Rachel Martin asks David Camarillo, who leads a Stanford University lab dedicated to inventing such equipment

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Football is getting harder to watch even for some of the sport's most passionate fans. Research has shown again and again that the hits those players take can have a lasting impact on the players' brains. The NFL announced this past week that it will spend $100 million to advance concussion research. Some of that money will go into continuing efforts to develop a safer helmet. Doctors say so far, helmets have done little to reduce concussions and the long-term effects of repeated head trauma.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Joining us now to talk about this is Dr. David Camarillo. He's assistant professor of bioengineering at Stanford and he leads a lab dedicated to inventing equipment that reduces traumatic brain injury in sports. Welcome to the program.</s>DAVID CAMARILLO: Thanks, glad to be here.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So just big question right off the top - can more money help create a helmet that will prevent traumatic brain injury in football? Is it even possible?</s>DAVID CAMARILLO: Well, I think you can certainly reduce some of the traumatic brain injuries that do occur. And it's not just the concussions. They're repetitive sub-concussive blows that some people think might be, you know, contributing to some of the long-term problems. And I think there's even a better opportunity there of reducing the severity of some of those impacts.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Can you tell me - what are the helmets like now? What are players using right now, and why are they insufficient?</s>DAVID CAMARILLO: Well, what they're using today is not significantly different than what players were using in the late '70s. The newer helmets at that point in time started incorporating foam as an energy-absorbing material whereas beforehand they had used suspension-type helmets, the same type of helmet you might use on a job construction site, like a hard hat. And the foams that are in use today have probably been tuned and optimized a little bit over the last 30, 40 years but you know, the basic concept and framework has remained the same.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: There's a company in Seattle funded in part by the University of Washington, VICIS. They've got a helmet out they claim can reduce impact forces better than any other helmet on the market. That's what they say. They've also gotten funding from the NFL. What do you make of this helmet?</s>DAVID CAMARILLO: Well, that claim very well may be true. However, I should say I haven't seen the data myself. And I certainly hope in the overall effort to advance research that they will publish and reveal more details about their helmet and the results. The thing that I like about what they're doing is they're not just simply using foams to absorb the energy. Is it possible that there might be other solutions out there that might even be better? Yeah. But I think it is a step in the right direction.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What are the other things out there that could be better? I mean, you only have so many options, right? You're still putting this thing on your head and you're trying to minimize the impact. So it doesn't just mean filling up that space in the helmet with something that's going to protect it.</s>DAVID CAMARILLO: That's true. But the manner in which you absorb the energy, I think, matters. And this comes back to really one of the research challenges in the field, is that if you want to evaluate if a helmet's going to protect against concussion you need to understand the details of what causes a concussion. And that's something that's been missing and a tough nut to crack.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So you're saying we still don't really know exactly what causes a concussion?</s>DAVID CAMARILLO: That's exactly what I'm saying. And in fact, in this NFL funding that they've announced I think they've dedicated about $60 million towards helmets, and they lump under that same umbrella sensors. And I think their hope is that the sensors part of the research will start to uncover more details about what causes the concussion. It's more complex than you might think. And that provides a means to design and test helmets against.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What are you working on in your labs?</s>DAVID CAMARILLO: We've found that the best approach is not so much the most obvious thing, which is to put sensors on a helmet. The helmet, if it's doing its job, moves significantly with respect to the head. So we've been targeting one of the hardest substances in the body - your teeth. So we put sensors in a mouth guard that essentially snaps into the player's mouth and gets quite precise measurement of the head's motion. And then we can start to infer what's happening inside the brain.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: There are critics out there, informed critics, who say you can build the best helmet in the world and the only thing that's really going to change the scale of all these injuries in football is to change the game of football.</s>DAVID CAMARILLO: Yeah, I think it's probably going to need to be a little bit of both. I think if you have a combined and holistic approach where, you know, modifications in rules and technique along with improvements of technology, there's significant opportunity. And I should say that it's going to be most challenging for the NFL because they're the biggest and the strongest, but they're a very small fraction of the 4 million football players in the country. Most of them are at the peewee and the junior high and high school level. And the forces - energies involved there might be a little more manageable.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Dr. David Camarillo. He's assistant professor of bioengineering at Stanford. Thanks so much for talking with us.</s>DAVID CAMARILLO: My pleasure. Thank you.

Corine Mack is president of the Charlotte-Mecklenburg chapter of the NAACP. She tells NPR's Rachel Martin how her community is responding in the wake of the shooting of Keith Lamont Scott.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And now we're joined by Corine Mack. She's the president of the Charlotte-Mecklenburg chapter of the NAACP.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Good morning. Thank you so much for being with us.</s>CORINE MACK: Good morning. Thank you for having me.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What did you learn from the footage that was released yesterday?</s>CORINE MACK: What I will say is that - first, let me say that I'm concerned that we didn't get all of the videos, number one. Number two - what I learned was that there is definitely a narrative being placed into the community that I think does more harm than good. We're not asking the CMPD to give us their position on the case. We're looking for all videos. There were some statements made initially by CMPD regarding the loss of life of Mr. Scott. And the videos don't meet the statements that were made. And that's what I learned.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You said there's a narrative that the police department is putting out there that you think is false. What is that?</s>CORINE MACK: Well not that it's false, that it's a concern - there was a long letter that was sent out by Chief Putney when he released those videos. That's the narrative I'm talking about. We're not asking for his narrative. We're asking for videos. That's it. We're not for still pictures of a gun in a holster because we don't know where that gun in a holster came from. We're asking for videos so that we all can see for ourselves exactly what happened on the day that Mr. Scott lost his life.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What effect will more transparency - if you get all the videos, what effect will that have on restoring what is, no doubt, broken trust between the police and the community there?</s>CORINE MACK: It will give us all an opportunity to see what they're seeing, period. So here's the problem - we were told one thing from the very first day. Now Keith Lamont Scott is being demonized, as so many African-Americans throughout the course of these days that we've had black men and women killed. Now he's a drug-toting - a drug addict who happened to be a gun-toting individual.</s>CORINE MACK: My concern is that every time we hear a story, the story is to demonize the victim. Keith Lamont Scott is dead. He can't speak for himself. So the only thing we have to see in those last moments of his life is the video, (unintelligible) why it's so important that we don't get anyone else's narrative. Let us see for ourselves, from every angle, what happened.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: This is the first Sunday since Keith Lamont Scott's death. How will you, along with your community, mark this day?</s>CORINE MACK: Well, I'm going to spend my time at church because I need to be refilled. I definitely need to. I'm marking it as a day to continue to trust God that truth will prevail. God is not a liar. Man is. Man has proven over and over again that he's a liar. But God never lies, and I believe in his mercy and his grace.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Corine Mack is the president of the Charlotte-Mecklenburg chapter of the NAACP.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Thank you so much for taking the time to talk with us today.</s>CORINE MACK: Thank you. You have a blessed day.

Jean Jennings of Automobile Magazine discusses General Motors' decision to close four of its North American truck and SUV plants due to rising gas prices. Jennings predicts Hummers may "seriously" be on the chopping block.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: This is Day to Day. I'm Madeleine Brand.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: And I'm Alex Chadwick. Coming up you think our gas prices are bad. Wait 'til you hear from drivers in Britain.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: High gas prices. That is the main reason GM gave for closing four of its assembly plants, plants that make big trucks and SUVs. Some 10,000 workers could lose their jobs over the next few years. Chief executive Rick Wagoner says this is a response to a quote, "permanent shift by Americans who are buying fewer gas guzzlers." Even the Hummer could be on the chopping block. Joining me now to talk about this is Jean Jennings. She's the president and editor in chief of Automobile Magazine. Jean, this seems to be pretty big news that Rick Wagoner is saying it's a permanent shift away from SUV's and big trucks.</s>Ms. JEAN JENNINGS (President and Editor in Chief, Automobile Magazine): It's pretty huge news considering that's bread and butter vehicle, or was bread and butter vehicle for so many years for the Detroit carmakers.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So what does this mean? That this is the end for these kinds of automobiles?</s>Ms. JEAN JENNINGS (President and Editor in Chief, Automobile Magazine): No, it doesn't mean it's the end. It means that there will be purpose-built vehicles, there are still contractors out there who need pick-up trucks and they will still build these vehicles, it just cuts out the dilatants. You'll no longer see 400,000 pick-up trucks sold in a year. And it means that we will see small trucks, smaller more fuel-efficient crossover vehicles. It won't be the end of vehicles that will hold six or seven or eight people, it won't be the end of vehicles that will be able to pull boats or trailers or carry loads, it just means you'll just see more fuel efficient and smaller versions of those vehicles.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So what will we not be seeing anymore? Which brands are going away forever?</s>Ms. JEAN JENNINGS (President and Editor in Chief, Automobile Magazine): I would expect that Hummer is really seriously on the block because there is no reason for that vehicle. It is a toy and in relative terms they use a lot of gas. I would hate to just predict the demise of actual brands, but there is no doubt that the price of fuel is going to stay high once China turned from an oil exporting to an oil importing nation. That was our signal that the third world was ready to start using fossil fuels. That party's over it is just over. So we are now in a rush to create more fuel-efficient vehicles, to use more alternative technologies, and this year we will see a humongous jump in small passenger car vehicles being sold instead of trucks and SUVs.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Well how quickly can GM make this turnaround?</s>Ms. JEAN JENNINGS (President and Editor in Chief, Automobile Magazine): Well you know they're on the move. I mean, they can make the move very quickly because they have consolidated their manufacturing plant around the world so that they're all operating on the same wavelength. They can jump right now and get small vehicles from Korea, they can get small vehicles from Europe, they can have any one of their manufacturing and design bases from around the world and bring in vehicles.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: I noticed that you're saying that these vehicles would be brought in, not made here.</s>Ms. JENNIGS: Well, you know, General Motors is a worldwide company and while they're shutting plants here they can very quickly - what I'm talking about is response time. You know you can't design, engineer and tool up a vehicle overnight. To me, quite frankly, the overnight demand of Americans, this is typical of us, when gas was a dollar a gallon, which by the way was just a couple of years ago, people wanted big giant vehicles and they wanted them right now. This is an unprecedented time when fuel economy is the number one buying consideration. Not design, not quality, not resale value, fuel economy is number one and people are insane. And GM can probably deliver those small cars I would think in very quick order by 2010, which is just around the corner. Meanwhile, they have a lot of cars right now that deliver 30 miles per gallon or more. Their biggest problem is recovering now from the strikes that have shut down some of the factories that build those popular vehicles. So they have to get those back up and running.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Jean Jennings editor of Automobile Magazine. We've been talking about GM's announcement today that it plans to shut down four plants that make bit SUVs and trucks in response to rising gas prices. Thanks, Jean.</s>Ms. JEAN JENNINGS (President and Editor in Chief, Automobile Magazine): Thank you, Madeleine.

An explosion in New York City's Chelsea neighborhood injured at least 29 people on Saturday night. Authorities are investigating why and how it happened.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Police and the FBI are trying to figure out how an explosion in New York City last night injured 29 people. The NYPD is also analyzing a secondary device found near the site. New York's mayor, Bill de Blasio, says so far there don't appear to be any links to terrorist groups.</s>BILL DE BLASIO: We have no credible and specific threat at this moment. But we do want to be very clear, the early indications is this was an intentional act.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: NPR's Hansi Lo Wang has been following all of these developments, and he joins us now on the line from New York. Hansi, good morning.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Good morning, Rachel.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What do we know so far about what happened?</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Well, we know this took place in Manhattan in the neighborhood of Chelsea, about a block away from the Flatiron Building. It was on 23rd Street, which is a very wide street - lots of restaurants, stores. And last night at about 8:30 p.m. Eastern, an explosion took place outside on the street. I spoke to an eyewitness, Leon Matthews of Brooklyn. He was just nearby. And here's what he said.</s>LEON MATTHEWS: Everything just shook around us. One minute everybody was shopping, the next minute everybody was running for their lives.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Now, we're still waiting for the police to confirm a lot of details. We don't know exactly what caused this explosion, what kind of device. We do know that, as you mentioned, there was a second device that was taken away about four blocks north of this explosion site, and it was discovered hours later. And so we're still waiting for more information.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: A lot of unanswered questions at this hour. What are some of the threads that investigators are looking at?</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Well, besides what exactly was used to cause the explosion, we don't know what exactly the connection is between the explosion and the secondary device. We don't know who did it. And police say they're looking, scanning through surveillance video. There was also - there was an - also another explosion in New Jersey earlier yesterday. A device exploded in a garbage pail, and right before a charity run for the Marine Corps. And it was in a town about an hour and a half away in New Jersey. And right now investigators say they're not sure if that was a coincidence or if there's something more, a connection between what happened in New York yesterday.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So we know at least 29 people were injured in the explosion that happened in the Chelsea neighborhood. Any information on those injuries?</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: Well, most of those people suffered from scrapes and abrasions from metal and glass from the explosion. We know that one person is in serious condition with a puncture. And as of last night, the fire department says none of those injuries were life-threatening.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Obviously, any time there's news of something like this happening in New York it's a difficult time for this city. They were marking only just a week ago the 15th anniversary of the 9/11 attacks. What's the vibe like in Manhattan right now?</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: You know, a lot of people who live nearby, who pass by are shaken up by what happened, can't believe that this happened on just, you know, what should've been a quiet Saturday night. And also, the explosion took place outside a home for blind residents. I spoke to a woman who says she's a friend with one of those residents, and they're very worried about how to get out of the building and their safety. And the whole area right now is an active crime scene. You know, not just the block where the explosion took place, but many of the blocks around it. Traffic has been stopped and we're not sure when those streets will reopen, so a big, big portion of Midtown Manhattan is shut down. So we'll see how long that will last.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: A developing story. We will be following it throughout the morning. NPR's Hansi Lo Wang reporting on that explosion in New York City last night. Thanks so much, Hansi.</s>HANSI LO WANG, BYLINE: You're welcome, Rachel.

A partial cease-fire in Syria seems to be unraveling after a U.S. airstrike resulted in dozens of deaths of Syrian government troops. Rachel Martin gets an update from Liz Sly of The Washington Post.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The Syrian cease-fire that started less than a week ago continues to unravel. The U.S. has been supporting opposition forces trying to unseat President Bashar al-Assad. Russia has been supporting Assad's regime. The cease-fire agreement happened because the U.S. and Russia decided to work together and coordinate airstrikes against ISIS in Syria. But then yesterday, a U.S.-led airstrike that was supposed to target the Islamic State instead hit some of Bashar al-Assad's forces. Russia then accused the U.S. of actually supporting ISIS. Russia also said they'd call an emergency meeting of the United Nations Security Council. It's a complicated situation with serious consequences for the region.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: To talk more, we're joined by Liz Sly of The Washington Post. She's been following developments from Beirut, and she joins us via Skype. Liz, thanks so much for being with us.</s>LIZ SLY: Thank you.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What more can you tell us about how this airstrike on Syrian government troops happened? This is a grave mistake.</s>LIZ SLY: Well, yes, we don't really know many details about how it happened. First of all, we had an allegation from the Syrian government. Then we had a very angry statement from the Russians saying that this strike had killed over 60 Syrian soldiers. Then we heard from the Pentagon, which said it had called off a strike in that area at the location mentioned after receiving telephone calls from Russia to say these are Syrian troops, stop bombing. They called off the strike. Now, they did say that they had informed Russia in advance about this location of the strike. They said that - hit it before, that ISIS has been there before. Apparently, the front lines had moved and the Pentagon didn't know the front lines had moved.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So it took so long to craft this cease-fire agreement. It was very fragile from the get-go. Now what are the odds that the cease-fire will hold after this strike?</s>LIZ SLY: Well, it's looking very, very shaky indeed. I don't think anybody ever held out much hope that this cease-fire was going to work. It really wasn't premised on any solution to the Syrian war. It was premised more on U.S.-Russian cooperation than it is about events on the ground in Syria. And neither site on the ground is particularly interested in cooperation, so all of them are very skeptical about the cease-fire in the first place. And this strike has come at an extremely inopportune time. We're supposed to start the U.S.-Russian cooperation tomorrow. Instead we have probably got huge amounts of diplomatic traffic between Moscow and Washington trying to unravel this mess that has occurred, and the cease-fire itself has sort of gone by the by.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What does this mean for the humanitarian crisis? I mean, the cease-fire was in essence supposed to give U.N. aid workers in particular the opportunity to finally get supplies in, especially to Aleppo, where the devastation has been so severe.</s>LIZ SLY: Well, this was why we could already see that the cease-fire wasn't working because the terms of the deal were that there would be a pause in fighting for seven days during which aid would flow unimpeded to these areas and especially Aleppo. Now, on the fifth day of that, which was yesterday, we still hadn't seen any aid move, so the cease-fire already wasn't working. Now, last night at the U.N. the Russian ambassador said, oh, it was going to move this morning. It was all ready to move. But now we don't know if it will. But you don't know whether it would have or not because they haven't done it in the past five days. So that key plank of the cease-fire had already basically gone.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Liz Sly is the Beirut bureau chief for The Washington Post. She's been monitoring the situation in Syria. Thank you so much for joining us.</s>LIZ SLY: Thank you.

Jaimi Hajzus was alarmed to learn that KKK fliers were dropped on lawns in her hometown of Coudersport, Pa. She tells NPR's Rachel Martin of a Facebook campaign to counter the hate group.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: A couple of weeks ago, some residents of Coudersport, Pa., got some strange packages delivered to their homes with flyers inside them from the Ku Klux Klan. Coudersport is a small town of about 2,500 people in the northern part of Pennsylvania. Jaimi Hajzus grew up there. And she lives a couple of hours away now, but she got all kinds of concerned messages from friends about these packages.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So she teamed up with Coudersport resident Joe Leschner who started a Facebook group to gather information and help fight the KKK's presence in that town. Jaimi Hajzus joins us now from Franklin, Pa.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Welcome to the program.</s>JAIMI HAJZUS: Hi.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So what did the fliers say specifically?</s>JAIMI HAJZUS: It said something like, are you concerned about what's going on in town? - and something like, you can sleep tonight because the KKK is watching.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So it was some kind of recruitment tool?</s>JAIMI HAJZUS: I think so. I don't think that they were trying to make people feel safer.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Is there a history of Klan activity in that town or in that area?</s>JAIMI HAJZUS: Unfortunately, yes. There's a little bit of history there. When I was growing up in Coudersport in the 1990s, a man named Augusts Christ lived there and was active in the white supremacy movement. He would often harass anti-racist church leaders, neighbors and community members. We saw more activity through the 1990s, where people from out of town were coming in town to gather for these white supremacist events. August Christ then moved out of Potter County around 1999. You know, we had kind of 16 - 15, 16 years of peace and quiet in Coudersport. And then - and now this.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So how did residents respond when they got these things?</s>JAIMI HAJZUS: People are upset. This isn't the sort of thing that we, as a small town, want to be known for. It is primarily white town, and we would like to be known for hunting and fishing. And we have an ice mine and other touristy-type attractions. And I think we've worked really hard to overcome this negative press (laughter). So it's disheartening to have it come back.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You said it's a predominantly white town. Are there African-Americans or other minority families who live there? And have you reached out to them to understand how they're processing this?</s>JAIMI HAJZUS: There are some. And actually, Joe Leschner took up the cause because he realized that members of his own family were feeling scared and threatened. Joe's wife is from Jamaica. And she felt scared, and he didn't like that at all.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The Facebook group that you guys have started is called Twin Tiers for Racial Equality. How are you using the space, and what's your goal?</s>JAIMI HAJZUS: We want to send a message that this hateful rhetoric is not welcome in our town. But also, we're trying to start a movement about saying things out loud to other white people. So white people need to stop talking the talk and start walking the walk in terms of how we behave towards our black and brown friends and neighbors, beginning with the words that we use and how we behave in our daily lives with other white people and including how we vote.</s>JAIMI HAJZUS: A big part of our campaign is this hashtag, #sayitoutloud, which means that we confront racism in real time right away when we see it or hear it. So one of our most important jobs as white allies is to confront our white friends and families when they are being racist.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: There have been reports of similar packages, like the ones that were delivered to the residents of Coudersport, these things showing up at people's houses across the country. Are you hearing from a lot of people outside Pennsylvania who found your Facebook group?</s>JAIMI HAJZUS: Yes, actually. We started hearing from people in Kansas and in other places, mostly sort of intensely rural small towns where there might be literally one or two people. But they've decided to take up this cause and try and threaten and harass their friends and neighbors.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Jaimi, have you gotten any threats as a result of this work?</s>JAIMI HAJZUS: No. The thing that I experience the most, honestly, in this kind of activism, in this kind of work, is silence. This is why I really need for our white people to start talking and need them to start speaking up. You know, they'll tell me that it's a political issue. It's not a political issue. The rhetoric that's being flung around right now is unacceptable, and that needs to be said loudly.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Jaimi Hajzus is co-founder of a Facebook group out of Pennsylvania called Twin Tiers for Racial Equality.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Jaimi, thanks so much for talking with us.</s>JAIMI HAJZUS: Thank you.

Donald Trump received the endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police on Friday. NPR's Rachel Martin speaks with the group's president, Chuck Canterbury.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Donald Trump was endorsed by the nation's largest police union this past week. The Fraternal Order of Police, which represents more than 300,000 people, put out a statement saying Donald Trump has made a, quote, "real commitment" to law enforcement. Chuck Canterbury joins us now. He's the president of the Fraternal Order of Police.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Welcome to the program.</s>CHUCK CANTERBURY: Thanks for having us, Rachel.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: In your statement, you said members of the Fraternal Order of Police believe Trump will make America safe again. Do you have a clear picture or have you heard a plan for how he would do that?</s>CHUCK CANTERBURY: Well, for the last - past number of years, we've been talking about the fact that law enforcement is not the answer to violent crime in inner cities - that we can help with crime reduction but unless you reduce systemic poverty and provide decent paying jobs that you're not going to really affect the crime rate. And Donald Trump, in our one-on-one interview, acknowledged that he agreed with us. And he thought that his plan to fight poverty would aid law enforcement, and he promised us a seat at the table.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And did you come away with a clear understanding of her plan and why you find that to be insufficient?</s>CHUCK CANTERBURY: Well, her plan, first of all, was much more of a social engineering plan than Mr. Trump's. He wants to work on the systemic causes of high crime, and Mrs. Clinton wants to work on police reform. And reform in a profession that doesn't need to be reformed is not the answer to fight crime. What we need to do is have people that will partner with us in these neighborhoods, help reduce unemployment, get people jobs. Doing a police reform package that she's been discussing in the campaign is - in our minds, falls way short of a real plan to attack crime.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Donald Trump, on Friday, made a statement that I want to ask you about. He suggested that Hillary Clinton's Secret Service detail should stop carrying guns and then, quote, "see what happens to her." And it's not the first time he's used language which, to some people, sounds like inciting violence against Hillary Clinton. How can a union dedicated to safety, like yours, endorse a candidate who uses rhetoric that many hear as supporting or encouraging violence?</s>CHUCK CANTERBURY: Well, the vote was taken weeks before he made that comment. And honestly, I believe his description - that that is more of a stab at her anti-Second Amendment stances that she's taken rather than the way the media has reported it. There's no doubt in my mind that Mr. Trump is not a wordsmith.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Do you think that he has had a problem with using violent rhetoric in some of his rallies and how he has been perceived as encouraging violence in those settings?</s>CHUCK CANTERBURY: That's something that my members don't like, but we also don't like candidates that support people that call for pigs to be murdered and shot on duty. So it's a double-edged sword for us on that.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And you're referring there not to Hillary Clinton herself but to members of the Black Lives Matter movement or people...</s>CHUCK CANTERBURY: Well, I...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: ...Who are supporting her?</s>CHUCK CANTERBURY: The most important example was the DNC when the speakers that were on her law enforcement day were all people associated with either Black Lives Matter or other police reformers. And not one single police survivor was invited to talk at the DNC. So to be honest with you, all of that rhetoric is getting a little tiresome.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Chuck Canterbury is the president of the Fraternal Order of Police.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Thank you so much for taking the time.</s>CHUCK CANTERBURY: OK, Rachel. Thank you. [POST-BROADCAST CLARIFICATION: Some of the comments by Chuck Canterbury, president of the Fraternal Order of Police, leave the impression that there were no speakers at the Democratic National Convention who represented either police departments or the families of officers killed in the line of duty. In fact, there were such speakers, though not on the same evening as speakers from the families of African-Americans killed during encounters with police.]

Russia's found a great way to tamper with the U.S. election, says James Lewis of the Center for Strategic and International Studies. He tells NPR's Rachel Martin he expects more embarrassing hacks.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Colin Powell, Simone Biles, Serena and Venus Williams - this past week, they joined a growing list of Americans, including Democratic Party officials, who have had their emails and private records hacked, reportedly by Russian-linked cyber spies. The hacks and leaks and Donald Trump's call for more have already shaken up the U.S. presidential campaign. Now the question is what further threat could they present to the integrity of our electoral process.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: James Andrew Lewis has been thinking a lot about this. He's a cyber security expert with the Center for Strategic and International Studies here in Washington, and he joins me in our studio. Thanks so much for coming in.</s>ANDREW LEWIS: Thanks for having me on the show.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: First off, the Obama administration hasn't even said for sure that Russia is actually behind these hacks. Are you so sure?</s>ANDREW LEWIS: The Obama administration hasn't said publicly. In private, it's an open secret in Washington. I don't know why they just don't say it. I mean, maybe they're trying to manage the politics of relations with Putin, but there's no doubt that it's Russian intelligence services.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Why are you so convinced?</s>ANDREW LEWIS: Well, there's two sets of evidence. The first set of evidence is the firms that have investigated the hacks that use forensic techniques. They found things that point back to Moscow and state agencies. And then second, we of course have our own intelligence methods that have also been persuasive. So between the two, everybody's saying it's the Russians. There shouldn't be any doubt.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And what's the motivation?</s>ANDREW LEWIS: There's two sets of motivation. One is petty and childish. I mean, they're still sort of grumpy about losing the Cold War. They were annoyed at having their athletes kicked out of the Olympics. That's the only motive for this stupid World Doping Agency hack.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: This was the Olympic athletes.</s>ANDREW LEWIS: Yeah.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Simone Biles, in particular.</s>ANDREW LEWIS: That was simply payback. But there's a larger campaign that Russia is using to delegitimize Western democracy, to split the U.S. and Europe and to promote far right parties, not only in the U.S., but in France, in Germany, in Scandinavia. So this is a bigger campaign to manipulate Western politics.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: In which direction, though, because Colin Powell - in the emails that were made public, he was perhaps more critical of Trump, but he also had tough words to say about Hillary Clinton.</s>ANDREW LEWIS: The goal here isn't to pick one side or the other to win, although I think they have a clear favorite. The goal is to create disruption, confusion, to delegitimize the results of our election. And President Putin has already been saying that. He said, how can they criticize us? Because - look at their own elections. Would anyone call them democratic?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Hackers targeted voter registration systems in Illinois and Arizona this summer. So, again, no conclusive evidence that this was Russia or Russian-linked cyber spies, but it does prove that these systems are vulnerable. Do you think the U.S. government is preparing for future attacks that could genuinely undermine the election come November 8?</s>ANDREW LEWIS: Well, it's already kind of succeeded. There's doubt about the elections, and so they could - people back in Moscow could say, we've already had some success. One of the problems for us - and in some ways, it's a good problem - is it's a federal system. So there's 51 different entities that control the state elections, and then there's thousands of counties, each with different machines, different processes. So it's not like you can find the place where the elections are controlled.</s>ANDREW LEWIS: That makes it harder for the Russians to manipulate them. But it also makes it harder for us to come up with a defense because the U.S. government does not own the elections. The states do. And there's an effort by DHS to work with the states to harden their electoral systems, but Uncle Sam has limited time, limited tools. The election's coming up close, and we might just have to grin and bear it.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Overall, what's the impact on U.S.-Russian relations of this particular chapter?</s>ANDREW LEWIS: It looks to me like about a month ago, they were getting ready to sanction Russia. The president created new cybersecurity sanctions. And it looked like they were getting ready to do it, and then something got in the way. Maybe it was a desire to see if they could get a truce in Syria. For whatever reason, they didn't pull the trigger.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: James Andrew Lewis is the senior vice president at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Thanks so much for coming in.</s>ANDREW LEWIS: Thank you.

Some of Donald Trump's digs have sounded suspiciously like criticisms Hillary Clinton has leveled against him.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: On Friday, Donald Trump made a bold claim. He said Hillary Clinton is responsible for first raising questions about whether or not President Obama was born in the United States.</s>DONALD TRUMP: Hillary Clinton...</s>DONALD TRUMP: ...And her campaign of 2008 started the birther controversy.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: That statement is not true. In fact, it was Trump who led the charge to try and delegitimize Obama's presidency by floating the idea that the president was actually from Kenya. Trump has spent a lot of time lately accusing Hillary Clinton of things that Democrats have actually been saying about him. NPR's Scott Detrow explains.</s>SCOTT DETROW, BYLINE: Here's something that Donald Trump said about Hillary Clinton the other week.</s>DONALD TRUMP: She's trigger happy and very unstable.</s>SCOTT DETROW, BYLINE: Sounds a little familiar, doesn't it? That's because the suggestion that Trump is too unstable, too unpredictable to be commander-in-chief has been a central attack Clinton has been making against her opponent all year.</s>HILLARY CLINTON: A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons.</s>SCOTT DETROW, BYLINE: This has been happening a lot lately. Trump takes the main critiques Clinton makes against him and says no, they apply to her, too. It's kind of like his campaign strategy comes from that childhood comeback to an insult. I'm rubber, and you're glue. Whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you. This trend really got a lot of attention when Trump started saying this.</s>DONALD TRUMP: Hillary Clinton is running a policy-free campaign. She offers no ideas, no solutions and only hatred and derision.</s>SCOTT DETROW, BYLINE: Now, the fact is that Clinton's campaign has buried itself in white papers and policies. And until lately, Trump has instead stuck to broad pronouncements, many of which boil down to the fact that he'll fix things because of his track record as a businessman. Clinton has repeatedly criticized him for not offering any details, but now Trump is throwing that charge back in her face.</s>JOHN BRABENDER: What they're trying to do is make sure that everybody looks and says OK, she's as bad as he is. And I think they've looked at it as a net win.</s>SCOTT DETROW, BYLINE: John Brabender is Pennsylvania-based Republican strategist who's worked in presidential politics. Taking your opponent's most positive trait and using it against him or her is a typical political tactic. But embracing your weaknesses and trying to use them on your opponent like a Judo throw - that's a little different.</s>JOHN BRABENDER: What most candidates want to do is they want to immediately diffuse the attack against them by just responding to the attack. And I think it's actually a pretty innovative and somewhat ingenious solution to say - yeah? Well, let's talk about her - how on the same thing she's even worse.</s>SCOTT DETROW, BYLINE: Brabender says Trump and his staff realize that every campaign event is going to be boiled down to just a few quotes or moments. Last month offers a good example. Hillary Clinton delivered a detailed, researched speech on Trump's many disparaging remarks about minority groups and the way the fringe alt-right nationalist movement has embraced Trump's campaign.</s>HILLARY CLINTON: This is someone who retweets white supremacists online.</s>SCOTT DETROW, BYLINE: Around the same time, Trump responded with a few lines at a rally.</s>DONALD TRUMP: Hillary Clinton is a bigot who sees people of color...</s>DONALD TRUMP: ...Only as votes.</s>SCOTT DETROW, BYLINE: And as John Brabender says Trump anticipated, many stories quoted them at almost equal levels.</s>JOHN BRABENDER: I think what they're trying to do at the very least is fight it to a draw. And if they can keep doing that, I think they feel like that's to their advantage.</s>SCOTT DETROW, BYLINE: The increasingly tightening polls suggest it may be working. Scott Detrow, NPR News.

To mark the 15th anniversary of September 11, NPR's Rachel Martin talks to Cantor Fitzgerald CEO Howard Lutnick. He lost his brother and more than 600 of his employees on that day.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Howard Lutnick is the CEO of the financial firm Cantor Fitzgerald. His company occupied the 101st to 105th floors of One World Trade Center. On September 11, 2001, he lost his brother and 658 of his colleagues. Lutnick survived and vowed to keep the firm alive. Now, 15 years later, he is still the CEO. And he joins us on the line from New York. Thank you so much for taking the time.</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: Hey. It's my pleasure, Rachel.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I'm sure there are a lot of moments and conversations that stand out from that first 24-hour period. But could I ask you to share one or two that stick with you?</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: Sure. So the night of September 11, I didn't really know who was alive and who wasn't alive. So we had a conference call. It was about 10 o'clock at night. And my employees called in. And I said, look, we have two choices.</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: We can shut the firm down and go to our friends' funerals. Remember, that would be 20 funerals a day every day for 35 straight days. And I've got to tell you, If'm not really interested in going to work. All I want to do is climb under the covers and hug my family.</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: But if we are going to go to work, we're going to do it to take care of our friends' families. So what do you want to do? You guys want to shut it down? Or do you want to work harder than you've ever worked before in your life? And that was the moment where the company survived.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You weren't there on that morning.</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: So it was my son Kyle's first day of kindergarten. And then as I walk him upstairs, an administrator grabs me and says, you know, your office is looking for you. A plane has hit the building. So I jumped in the car. And obviously, as I got down there, I saw that huge, black, billowing smoke.</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: And the guy that was driving my car started crying. I was like, let's just - we got to get there. We just got to get there. And so I drove right to the building and got to the door of the building and started grabbing people as they came out.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Did you see anyone you knew?</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: I didn't. You know, I was grabbing people as they came out. And then I heard this sound. It was the loudest sound I'd ever heard. What it was was Two World Trade Center collapsed. So I just start running. I'm just running.</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: And I look over my shoulder. And there's this big, giant, black tornado of smoke chasing me. So I dive under a car. And the black smoke just went foosh (ph). You know, I was saying, don't breathe, don't breathe, don't breathe. And then take a deep breath.</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: And then, you know, all this sort of particles and soot and dust starts filling my lungs. I understood right away that if I was suffocating and I was outside, how could they possibly have survived inside?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Was your brother in the building?</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: My brother Gary was 36, and he was in the building. And later that night when I spoke to my sister, she told me that she spoke to my brother. And she had said to him, oh, my God. Thank God you're not there. You know, thank God you're not there.</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: And he said, I am here. And I'm going to die. And I just wanted to tell you I love you. And he said goodbye. He said - you know, my sister got to talk to my brother when he said goodbye. I still get choked up. Sorry.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: That's OK.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So you had a business to run amidst overwhelming grief. How did you begin to put those pieces together?</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: Well, decisions I made were they needed to have a boss for the business. If I didn't have a leader, I shut it. And I had a division of 86 people where four people survived. And you can't really build a business back with four people.</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: Basically, we went from being a great company that was making a million dollars a day to a company that was losing a million dollars a day. But they all have mortgages to pay, and they need to put food on their table.</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: So one of the things I did is I would call the leaders of other companies and say, here, this guy's John. He sells this many products. He's incredibly successful. You would've never been able to hire him. He was never going to come work for you.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: (Laughter).</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: But here's what I need. I need you to match what he made with me. And if not, in one hour, I'm going to call your other competitor. And he's going to be working there. And I got all my people jobs.</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: And then, number two, I sat down with my sister. So she is sort of curled up in a ball in the corner. And I said, Edie, I need you to run the relief fund. I need to take care of these families. I need someone to tell that we care. And I have to try to rebuild the company so I can send them some money. She's like, I can't do it. I can't do it. And she's, like, sickened.</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: And I said, no, no, you have to do it. She had a completely, totally destroyed and broken heart. And when you need to talk to other people who have a destroyed, broken heart, you know, if you don't have one, your voice sounds like tin.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Did it change what kind of leader you became?</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: Well, I had a - I'd been to hell before on September 12, 1979, when my dad got killed. And my extended family - they pulled out instead of coming in. And I was not going to repeat that in my life. And so the drive, for me, was to show that I'm a human being.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: What do you do on September 11 every year?</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: Well, this year, we'll have a memorial. But the closest business day - so in this case, it's Monday the 12 - I ask all my employees to waive their day's pay. And you can't make people work their tail off and not pay them. It doesn't really work that way.</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: But they all waive their day's pay. And then every penny of revenue that comes in the door, we give away. Last year, we raised $12 million that day. So they go home, and they think 9/11 is a beautiful thing. And it binds my company together. It lets the new people understand who we are and what rages inside of our soul and that we're always going to bring 9/11 - it's a part of us, but it doesn't define us. But it is us.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Howard Lutnick is the CEO of Cantor Fitzgerald. Mr. Lutnick, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts this weekend.</s>HOWARD LUTNICK: All right. Thanks, Rachel.

The first presidential debate of 2016 is Monday night in Hempstead, N.Y. It could be a major turning point in the race between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: After all the primaries, endorsements, stump speeches and rallies, tomorrow, Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton will have their first head-to-head debate. We're joined now by NPR national political correspondent Mara Liasson, who can tell us what's at stake for each of the candidates. I'm guessing it's a lot.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Hi, Mara.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: Hi, Rachel.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Let's start by just having you break down what each candidate needs to do tomorrow night.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: This debate is extremely important. You know, a hundred million people could be watching. The race is very tight. The latest ABC-Washington Post poll shows that it's a virtual tie. So for Hillary Clinton, she comes into the debate with the burden of high expectations, and she has a much harder task in the debates. Somehow, in 90 minutes, she has to show voters that she is honest, trustworthy and likable. And without looking angry or defensive or aggressive - because women candidates are penalized for that - she has to show that he is unqualified to be president.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: Donald Trump, on the other side, has the benefit of low expectations. He has to be reasonable and calm and show a basic command of the facts because he has to help people imagine him as president because so many people think he's not qualified to be president. And the big question for Trump really is, which Trump shows up? Is he the one who is going to counterattack and insult his opponents, or, as he put it in an interview, he plans to be very, very nice?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: All right. We'll watch for that. I want to turn to something happening today, though. Both candidates are meeting separately with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in New York. President Obama had kind of a famously contentious relationship with Netanyahu. What do Clinton and Trump want out of their meetings with him?</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: This meeting is much more important for Donald Trump than Hillary Clinton. Clinton has met with Netanyahu many times. Trump needs to show that he's presidential. And every time he sits down with a foreign head of state, like the press conference he had in Mexico, he tries to do that. The interesting thing about this race is how little Israel has been an issue. And that really is because of Netanyahu himself, who has been very careful to stay out of this race, unlike in 2012, where he was widely perceived to be favoring Mitt Romney over Barack Obama.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And lastly, we need to get to this interesting, I guess is the word for it, endorsement that happened for Donald Trump this past week. Ted Cruz, a big rival of Trump's in the primary, came out and said that he was going to endorse Donald Trump.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Is that a big deal? I mean, does it change anyone's mind?</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: I don't think so. Cruz went from saying vote your conscience at the Republican convention to saying he would vote for Trump. I think people who would have been swayed by Ted Cruz's endorsement were already with Trump. What it means, I think, is that the Republican Party's accommodation to Trump is now almost complete. The Never Trump-ers (ph) are really down to a - the Bushes and a few conservative intellectuals.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: But of course, Cruz has taken a big beating for this. Just as he was booed for not endorsing Trump in the convention, the Twitter-verse is filled with tweets saying Lyin' Ted went to Complyin' Ted.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: (Laughter).</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: So I think this is really more about Ted Cruz than it is about the race itself.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: NPR's Mara Liasson.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Thanks so much, Mara.</s>MARA LIASSON, BYLINE: Thank you.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And our colleague Robert Siegel will be anchoring NPR's live coverage of tomorrow's presidential debate. You can listen on many NPR stations starting at 9 p.m. Eastern Time.

September 11, 2001 was an overwhelming day of loss for many Americans. But for Regina Cheung, even amidst the pain of that day, she experienced a positive clarity that would change her life forever.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: When we remember 9/11, most of the stories we tell are about loss. Regina Cheung, like the rest of us, felt that loss. But she also found something on that day, and it changed her life.</s>REGINA CHEUNG: My name's Regina Cheung. I live in Sunnyvale, Calif. In September of 2001, I had just recently graduated from college and was beginning graduate school in the Boston area. And I had been in a relationship with my college boyfriend since freshman year. But over the summer, we decided even though we were both going to be going to Boston for graduate school that we wanted to kind of go on a break. I wasn't really sure if this was the right relationship for me outside of the bubble of college. I wanted to go into my new adult life as, you know, one person going forward on my own. And then I would see, you know, maybe this would work out, maybe it wouldn't.</s>REGINA CHEUNG: And so the morning of September 11, after I called my mother the first thing I thought of was, where's my ex-boyfriend? And we had actually been in touch and were planning on, I think, having lunch that day. I had no way of really contacting him. But this was before cell phones were ubiquitous, so I just kind of took it on faith. OK, I'll go down to the - to meet him at the subway and hopefully he'll be there. And he was. And he hugged me.</s>REGINA CHEUNG: And at that time it was like, OK, he's here with me now. I'm going to be OK no matter what's going on around - in the world around me. And I think at that point, that was when I knew that, yes, this was the person that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. I'm sure that there was some conversation that happened afterwards, but that's not really what sticks in my mind. It's standing in the T with him, hanging onto him for dear life.</s>REGINA CHEUNG: Everything went from zero to 100 pretty quickly after that. I moved in with him about six to nine months later. The following fall we got engaged, and we got married in 2003. And since then, we've moved to California. We now have two kids. And this weekend, we're celebrating my son's eighth birthday. We actually took him home from the hospital on September 11 in 2008. And that kind of took the sting out of - sting out of the day. September 11, 2001 - that was, like, the beginning of my adult life.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: That was Regina Cheung.

The U.S. Sentencing Commission is considering whether to reduce the federal prison sentences of thousands of people in jail for crack cocaine offenses. Marc Mauer, executive director of The Sentencing Project, is pushing for retroactive resentencing.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: How big of a difference does three weeks make?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, three weeks ago, federal sentences for crack cocaine were much tougher. Then, new guidelines from the U.S. Sentencing Commission took effect, bringing the penalties more in line with what some advocates say is fair. But what about people already serving their sentences? Are those too lengthy?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, the commission is now considering whether to reduce prison terms for thousands of people in jail for crack cocaine offenses.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Later on the show, we'll speak with someone who opposes retroactive resentencing.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: But first, Mark Mauer. He's executive director of the Sentencing Project and he thinks that convicts already serving sentences should get theirs reduced, which means some would be let out of jail.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Welcome.</s>Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): Hi. Thanks. Good to be here.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, explain this. A person arrested for crack cocaine offense on October 31st, a federal offense, would get a different sentence from someone who got theirs on November 1st?</s>Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): Exactly. You know, the crack cocaine laws go back to the mid-1980s and punish crack cocaine offenses far more harshly than powder cocaine. And the U.S. Sentencing Commission, recognizing this disparity, has modified the sentences somewhat, but for people sentenced as November 1st.</s>Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): So, essentially, someone who is sentenced on October 31st might have gotten a 10-year sentence for crack offense. A similar person sentenced on November 1st is now getting roughly a nine-year sentence. And the question is, is there any justification for making those different or should we make it retroactive to people who've already been sentenced and are sitting in prison right now.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: As part of this whole debate over crack and powder cocaine, these reduced sentences or the reduced guidelines would still have much higher penalties for crack cocaine, correct?</s>Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): Far higher. One quick example. There's a guy in prison right now by the name of Willie Mays Aikens. He's a former baseball star for the Kansas City Royals, played in the World Series, subsequently became addicted to drugs and started selling drugs and sold to an undercover agent. He was convicted of a crack cocaine offense and is in the middle of doing about a 20-year sentence. If this proposal goes through, to make it retroactive, he'll have about three years, cut-off in his sentence. He'll still do 17 o 18 years. If he'd been convicted of selling powder cocaine, he would have gotten a sentence about two and a half years only. That's the magnitude of the difference we're looking at.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So the Sentencing Commission is taking this up now. When could we expect a decision?</s>Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): Well, some people have heard that they may make a decision in January. They can do it at anytime, so it's likely within the next month or two. They had a full day of hearings this week, heard very broad variety of views. So I think all the information that they need to look at this issue is certainly before them right now.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: How does race play into this convictions over crack and powder cocaine?</s>Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): Well, race is fundamental to the whole policy. You know, back in 1986 when these laws were adopted by Congress, we have this relatively new drug that had come on the scene, crack cocaine. And the image of that - the crack user, whether or not it was entirely correct - was that of a young black male, sometimes young black female. I mean, we have cover of Newsweek magazine and similar - lots of stories on television. That was the image that came across.</s>Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): And the Congress passed the crack cocaine mandatory sentencing laws, really, in record time. There are virtually no hearings held, no discussion about - with experts in the field who knew something about addiction or treatment. And it's hard to escape the fact or the conclusion that the rush to judgment had something to do with the perception of the person who is being affected.</s>Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): It's intriguing to note that the Sentencing Commission has previously made retroactive changes for other drug sentencing laws, particularly for marijuana and LSD, where they change the law that made it retroactive.</s>Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): Those changes primarily benefited white defendants. Here, the estimates are 85 percent of the people who would benefit from crack retroactivity would be African-Americans. So it's a very stark contrast before us.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Do you, in your mind - although, you're advocating this - see any downside to potentially releasing people who have already been convicted under existing laws?</s>Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): Well, you know, there are some people who make the charge that -well, we'd be releasing dangerous people out in the community. Some of these people have had weapons involved in their offense. Some of them have been convicted also of obstruction of justice and the like. That's equally true for people convicted of powder cocaine or a heroin offenses or anything else, and yet, we routinely let people out of prison every day.</s>Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): Many of the people sentenced for these crack cocaine offenses will have served 10, 15, even 20 years or more before they're let out. And so if we can't come up with some way to provide these people with job skills, with life prospects after that many years in prison, that points to a much more fundamental problem.</s>Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): It seems to me they've paid far too much in terms of punishment for the crimes they committed. The question now is how do we prepare them for release to live at more constructive lifestyle when they get out. And I think we have an opportunity to take advantage of that now.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Marc, thank you so much.</s>Mr. MARK MAUER (Executive Director, The Sentencing Project): Thanks for having me.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Marc Mauer is executive director of The Sentencing Project. He was at NPR's Washington, D.C. headquarters.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Next, we'll hear what law enforcement thinks about the proposal.

Rachel Martin explores some character traits that push voters away from the two most unpopular candidates in modern history. For Clinton, it's the way she seems to protect her privacy at all costs.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You've heard this before. Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are the two most unpopular presidential candidates in modern history. So in many ways, this year's election has become a question of character. The candidates themselves understand that.</s>HILLARY CLINTON: I get it that some people just don't know what to make of me.</s>DONALD TRUMP: Mr. Trump, you're not a nice person. I think I am a nice person. People that know me like me.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: We're going to explore some of the character traits that push voters away in this election. For Clinton, it's the way she seems to protect her privacy at all costs.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: H. CLINTON: The server contains personal communications from my husband and me. And I believe I have met all of my responsibilities, and the server will remain private.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: For Trump, it's how he seems to crave public attention and says anything to get it.</s>DONALD TRUMP: They say I have the most loyal people. Did you ever see that - where I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose any voters, OK? It's, like, incredible.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: We'll focus on Donald Trump elsewhere in the show but first, Hillary Clinton and the trust gap with the American people that even she admits she has to bridge.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: H. CLINTON: You can't just talk someone into trusting you. You've got to earn it.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Here she is on the campaign trail this summer in Chicago.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: H. CLINTON: So yes, I could say that the reason I sometimes sound careful with my words is not that I'm hiding something. It's just that I'm careful with my words.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: H. CLINTON: I believe what you say actually matters. I think that's true in life, and it's especially true if you're president. So I do think before I speak. And I could say that political opponents and conspiracy theorists have accused me of every crime in the book over the years. None of it's true - never has been. But accusations like that never really disappear once they're out there.</s>HILLARY CLINTON: Growing up and really kind of watching my mom in the arena, I don't remember a time when she wasn't attacked.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Chelsea Clinton has spent a lifetime trying to understand why.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: C. CLINTON: My earliest political memories really come from 1986 when my dad was running for re-election as governor of Arkansas. And he was running against a man named Frank White who had been governor of Arkansas before. And he spent much of the campaign, although he was running against my dad, attacking my mom.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And I remember this so vividly, I think, because one of his lines of attack was against her as a mother. You know, she must be a terrible mother because we see her working as a lawyer. She must spend all her time kind of in her office or in the courtroom. And it just all seemed kind of crazy to me because I was an only child. And so I thought kind of my opinion about my mom should matter a lot more than Frank White's opinion about my mom.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And so my entire life, there's been this cognitive dissonance between the public characterization of my mother and my lived experience with her as my mom.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: The public characterization of Hillary Clinton that began back in Arkansas had a lot to do with what she wasn't. She wasn't a Southerner. She was from Illinois. She wasn't a stay at home mom. She was a partner at a law firm. She wasn't Hillary Clinton. She was Hillary Rodham. Here's an interview she did with Arkansas public television in 1979.</s>UNIDENTIFIED HOST: Does it bother you that because you don't use your husband's name that people think you're too liberal? And, after all, this is not a state known for liberalism.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: A 30-something-year-old Hillary Rodham essentially says too bad.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: H. CLINTON: Some people may think I'm, you know, too this or too that. But I think that's another one of the dangers about being in public life. One cannot live one's life based on what somebody else's image of you might be. All one can do is live the life that God gave you. And, you know, you just do the best you can. And if somebody likes you or doesn't like you, that's really, in many ways, something you have no control over.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: That was Hillary Rodham in 1979 in Arkansas. Fast forward more than a decade. Her husband is running for president, and she is still uncomfortable with the public expectations of being a political wife.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: H. CLINTON: I suppose I could have stayed home and baked cookies and had teas. But what I decided to do was to fulfill my profession, which I entered before my husband was in public life.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Being a politician's wife was difficult for her in general. But being Bill Clinton's wife came with added complications.</s>STEVE KROFT: I'm Steve Kroft. And this is a special abbreviated edition of "60 Minutes." Tonight, Democratic presidential hopeful Governor Bill Clinton and his wife, Hillary, talk about their life, their marriage and the allegations that have all but stalled his presidential campaign.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Allegations of infidelity, which forced Hillary Clinton to both defend her husband and her marriage.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: H. CLINTON: You know, I'm not sitting here as some little woman standing by my man like Tammy Wynette.</s>DAVID MARANISS: By the time they started to run for the presidency, Hillary Clinton had made her bargain.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: This is journalist David Maraniss. He's covered the Clintons for decades.</s>DAVID MARANISS: She knew Bill Clinton's history, and she decided that what they could do together in terms of policy was far more important than his personal flaws. And because they were so closely tied together in their rise, she had to defend him.</s>DAVID MARANISS: H. CLINTON: The great story here for anybody willing to find it and write about it and explain it is this vast right-wing conspiracy that has been conspiring against my husband since the day he announced for president.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: That was Hillary Clinton on NBC's "Today Show" in January of 1998, defending her husband after the allegations about Monica Lewinsky surfaced. But with that now-famous right-wing conspiracy remark, she was firing back at years of scandals that have loomed over the Clintons and complicated their political fortunes.</s>DAVID MARANISS: You know, with the Clintons, a lot of things are true and false at the same time.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Again, journalist David Maraniss.</s>DAVID MARANISS: It's part of the complexity of their place in American politics. And so whether it was an actual conspiracy or not, it is irrefutable that the right wing was more agitated by the Clintons and more prone to go after them in any way, whether something was accurate or not than any other Democratic politicians. And so by the time, you know, the Monica Lewinsky story broke and Hillary sort of rallied the troops and came to his defense and went on "The Today Show" and issued that statement and was really the strongest person in the White House during that crucial period when some - you know, many people were saying that Clinton would have to resign. It was Hillary that was actually the steel there.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Some Americans didn't trust Hillary Clinton to tell the truth because her husband didn't when it came to Monica Lewinsky. They also didn't trust her because she was fundamentally changing what it meant to be a first lady. Yes, she oversaw the Christmas decorations at the White House and hosted state dinners. But she also had a lot of power from the beginning, when her husband put her in charge of health care reform. Hillary Clinton was an important policy adviser.</s>MELANNE VERVEER: I think it can best be summed up by the phrase - who elected her?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: This is Melanne Verveer. She was Hillary Clinton's chief of staff when she was first lady and when she oversaw the administration's push for health care reform in 1993. Verveer says there was a lot of pushback to that appointment, even inside the White House.</s>MELANNE VERVEER: Who elected her to come in and have this kind of power over a significant part of the U.S. economy, at least in terms of what health care represented?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: It's been a never-ending cycle with Hillary Clinton over the years. She gets criticized because of her personality or professional ambition, then she gets defensive. Then she gets criticized for being defensive, and she pulls the drawbridge up even further. David Maraniss sees direct evidence of that with the scandal that's plagued her current presidential campaign, her decision to use a private email address and private server while secretary of state.</s>DAVID MARANISS: I see it as symptomatic of Hillary's protectiveness. And if there's a chance for her to not be exposed publicly in any way, she'll take it that direction.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Maraniss says that instinct has been a political liability for Clinton throughout her political career.</s>DAVID MARANISS: In many key points, it was Hillary who was the most protective and the least transparent.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: How have these attacks - and especially the accusations of secrecy - how have these all stuck to Hillary Clinton in a way that they haven't stuck to Bill Clinton? And they seem to. They seem to adhere to her in a way that he shakes off.</s>DAVID MARANISS: There's a lot of reasons for that. One is sexism. I think that's undeniable - that as the strongest woman figure in modern American politics, she is susceptible to more criticism for things that males might not be criticized for.</s>DAVID MARANISS: Another aspect is that Bill Clinton is just purely - I mean this in a complimentary way to Hillary - but I've sometimes called Bill Clinton an authentic phony and Hillary Clinton a phony phony. In other words, Bill Clinton is better at presenting himself in these many different ways. He's a protean character who, when he comes into a room, can be whatever that room wants him to be. And Hillary is not as adaptable as that. And so she's less fluid in her political style. And that leads her open to more of these criticisms.</s>DAVID MARANISS: And so over the course of time, I think that that's built up this public perception of her. Now the question to me now is whether, now that she's on the verge of actually reaching this incredible position, whether that will liberate her from that protectiveness - whether, you know, she doesn't need Bill Clinton anymore.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: That was an excerpt from our special program, The Making of Clinton and Trump. You'll hear our story on Donald Trump elsewhere in the show. You can hear the special on many NPR member stations over the next month and on the NPR One app.

Turkey distributors say the number of frozen birds in grocers' freezers is the lowest it's been in five years. Plus, the president of Shell Oil is going on the offensive, addressing concerns about rising gas prices. Farai Chideya talks dollars and cents with economist and Bennett College president Dr. Julianne Malveaux.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: From NPR News, this is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Stores have almost 500 million pounds of turkey in stock, and there's still might not be enough for your Thanksgiving dinner. Turkey distributors say the number of frozen birds is the lowest it's been in five years, and that shortage might cost you. Mix that in with rising energy cost and you've got a perfect recipe for the biggest annual increase in holiday food prices since 1990.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: For more, we've got author and economist Julianne Malveaux. She's also the president of Bennett College. Welcome.</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): Hi, Farai, how are you?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm doing great. Getting ready to help out my mom in the kitchen. Now, a turkey dinner's going to cost 11 percent more this holiday season compared to last year, that's according to the American Farm Bureau Federation. So, explain what we're paying for when we consider putting the bird and the fixings in the shopping cart.</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): Well you called it right when you introed the piece. It's partly energy cost. It's harder to transport things who are more expensive, anyway. It's partly the shortage of birds, which we might have predicted. People who are trying to contain cost really might want look at something other than a turkey, and there are other things our folk can buy. But if you want the traditional meal, 11 percent is higher than the increase in the consumer price index.</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): But, Farai, the other thing that we should bear in mind is this particular Farm Bureau survey is a very weak survey - its 150 people at about 30 cities. And so there are other ways to look at this stuff, and the cost a conscious consumer can probably break even from last year.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, I have to say that they say the average Thanksgiving meal will cost about $42 for a family of 10. That doesn't sound too bad to me.</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): No, it really doesn't. And so while I think it's useful to track prices around this, I don't think that these are alarming data. And again, as I said, where are people actually shopping? What are they doing? If they're going to the Costcos and the other discount stores of the world, are they having the same challenges?</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): So, I'm not sure that we want to get alarmed about this, but certainly, in the spirit of Thanksgiving, what we might want to do is think about the people who don't have the dollars, the access, the money or the food, and the people will be celebrating this thankful day alone or in dire circumstances.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, this is the season of spending. We have talked about this before and we're going to talk about it again. How, in general, should people think about holiday spending, whether it's on food or other items as something that fits into the flow of life?</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): People should budget it. We know - we've all known that the holidays were coming since the beginning of the year, so hopefully people have budgeted. If you're having the big Thanksgiving dinner or something else, that's a part of your budget. And if you're doing something for a huge family, as many of us do, you're asking people maybe pitch in. Everyone just doesn't come and eat, but they come and share.</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): But all - every spending incidents is something that should show up in someone's budget. We know that the average family spends, you know, between 100 and $1,000, over the holiday season, starting Thanksgiving going through Christmas for gifts and for other kinds of special occurrences, and those things should be budgeted. So people should really not get into the impulse thing of, hey, I've got my credit card and I love Uncle Joe and there's this great blue cashmere sweater I'm going to buy it for.</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): It should be, okay, I've got 800 bucks in my budget because that's what I have. And, you know, this sweater has to be taken into the context of everything else that I might want to buy. That's hard for people. I mean, a lot of - unfortunately, Farai, we equate consumerism with caring, and that's something that we just have to unpack and stop doing.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, let's talk a little bit more about these energy prices. You said it could affect the food prices. Now, there has been a conversation between American people and the media and head of Shell Oil. Shell Oil President John Hofmeister has been receiving a lot of angry letters, including one possible death threat from customers who want to know what's going on with these fuel prices.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So he appeared on CNN's "American Morning" last Thursday to answer gas price concerns. He recently wrapped up a 50-city tour to talk with folks about rising cost.</s>Mr. JOHN HOFMEISTER (President, Shell Oil): Well, it was more listen. Listen to Americans about their issues, their concerns to see what could we possibly do about it. And I tell you, I come away with a very strong conclusion and that conclusion is it's time for Americans to agitate their government to open up more oil and gas resources in this country.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So he says he's listening, but he also says that he wants people to agitate, to open up American oil resources. We, of course, import oil from many different nations. There was so much of a battle over the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and off of - over offshore drilling opportunities near Louisiana. Is this really what Americans want? Where is this conversation coming from?</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): Well, this is a matter of supply and demand, Farai. And the fact is that we are not supplying enough of our own energy. There are possibilities in our nation, but those possibilities have implications that are environmental and have other reverberations.</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): Mr. Hofmeister is - excuse me - is basically raising a question that keeps being raised of how far we're willing to go and how many dollars we're willing to spend to basically find a domestic resource. But they're wrong. He's raising, really, in my mind, the wrong question because the other question is, what have we been doing about our energy policy? What are we doing about conservation? And I understand why people are angry, when you see the way that oil prices have risen and you see these profits. It's not just the prices. It's the profits. People are upset about it that they're saying, what's in it for me? What are you getting and what am I getting?</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): And so it would seem to me that an equally responsible, if not a more responsible approach, from a CEO of an oil company might be to look at issues around conservation. And these are issues that have unresolved, as you know, Farai, since the mid-'70s, when we had those first sets of lines and first sort of energy crisis that we've gone back to that again and again and again. But our nation has been unwilling because of the profiteering of folks like Shell to deal with issues of conservation.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Mr. Hofmeister says that increasing the oil supply in the short term could help the research for renewable energy in the long term. What do you make of that?</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): Well, I think that's a pretty self-serving kind of comment, frankly. I do think that, obviously, the profits can be used for research, but then the responsible question might be, what have you been doing with the profits heretofore? The oil companies have never had profit-free quarters. You've not seen their prices - their stock prices drops significantly. So I - if that question were raised to me or posed to me, then I want to say, what is your record on research right now?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It seems, in a way, as if there is a Scylla and Charybdis effect. If you create oil here in the U.S., there are environmental risks. If you import oil, if you have oil shipped around, you can have, as we've seen recently, disasters where the beaches are flooded with oil. Is there any way to avoid some of these risks?</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): No, there really isn't. This is all about looking at cause and benefits. And certainly, the environmental risks that we may face are real. The other risks that we face in terms of importing are real. And then there's the issue of the geopolitical situation around imports and what that means around availability. We know that, for example, some of the oil-producing countries are not in love with the United States and indeed may be moving some of their reserves to the euro as opposed to the dollar. These are things that we need to be concerned about when we talk about what's going on. But…</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, Julianne…</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): Yes?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I have to jump in here. You said euro…</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): I did.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: …and it's a perfect time to actually talk about the euro. So prices for oil might keep on rising if members of the oil cartel, OPEC, convert their cash reserves from dollars to euros. They were talking very seriously about this. And there's even signs closer to home that the euro, which 26 European countries use rules right now over the dollar.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Take Jay Z's recent music video for the "American Gangster"-inspired song, "Blue Magic."</s>JAY Z (Rapper): (Singing) So easily do a W-H-I-P. My repetition with riches will bring you kilo business. I got Creole C-O…</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, what you can't tell is that he is flossing a wad of 500 euro bills. So this whole idea of dollar, dollar, bill you all and the Benjamins seems to be so 2002. What does that mean that, you know, the Wu Tang Web site also has the price in Euros? You know, there is - what does that mean that American pop culture is embracing the euro?</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): It means that rappers are smarter than I thought they were. Actually, if you look at the inception of the euro, it was trading on par with the dollar. Now, it's about 1.4748 euro to the dollar, which means the dollar has basically declined in value to the Euro over the years. A folk like Jay-Z and others are paying attention to that. But they're not the only ones paying attention.</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): China has talked about changing its currency portfolio to carry more Euros than dollars. The oil-producing companies have talked about that as well, Farai. And indeed, when you look at any number of things, it suggests that the United States is at the brink of losing its eminence because of any, again, I want to use the word geopolitical forces, but additionally, our economy, while it looks good internally, quite frankly, is not doing as well as it might. And the bottom line is we're not investing in our futures. The Euro is a better bet for a lot of people than dollars.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, when we say better bet, do you mean that it's a better longtime investment, long-term investment to hold on to Euros, is that what you're talking about?</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): I think a lot of people - no. Currency dominance - and the British pound was once a dominant currency. Currency dominance speaks to national eminence. I mean, currencies will fluctuate. The euro has and will continue to do so, as does the dollar or any other, the pound, the peso, you name it. Currencies will fluctuate.</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): What people really doing are voting with their feet about their opinion of the United States. In other words, you don't think much of the United States, you're not going to hold dollars. You think better of the euro, you're going to hold euros. You think better of, you know, you pick the country, you're going to hold their currency. So we've seen essentially people make decisions about what they think of our country and flip it into the currency. If they had done this a decade ago or decade and a half ago, they would not have had such an alternative. But the euro has become a credible alternative to the dollar.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Will it effect at all prices on what we pay here in the States?</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): It won't necessarily affect prices on domestic goods. It may well affect prices on imported goods. At the same time, you know, our economic weakness makes us stronger in the import market. So - the fact that Jay-Z or whomever is choosing dollars over - or euros over the dollar does not hit you in your pocketbook today, but the moment that the dollar becomes the least preferred currency, that will hit us because there will be more vulnerable to other people's fluctuations.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, thank you so much.</s>Dr. JULIANNE MALVEAUX (Author and Economist; President, Bennett College): Thank you. Happy Thanksgiving.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Author and economist - yes, happy Thanksgiving. Author and economist Julianne Malveaux was president and CEO of Bennett College. And she joined us from NPR headquarters in Washington, D.C.

In 2003, the pop group's song "Where Is the Love?" was in the top 8 on the Billboard 100. Now will.i.am has rewritten the song. He tells Rachel Martin it's been adapted to reflect the issues of 2016.

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: You remember this song - "Where Is The Love" by the Black Eyed Peas. It was one of the top songs of 2003.</s>THE BLACK EYED PEAS: What's wrong with the world, Mama? People living like they ain't got no mamas. I think this whole world...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Now, the Black Eyed Peas have released a new version, remixed and rewritten to reflect what's happening in the world today.</s>THE BLACK EYED PEAS: Where is the love when a child gets murdered or a cop gets knocked down? Black lives, not now - everybody matter to me...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: One of the song's creators, will.i.am, joins me now from our studios in New York. Thanks so much for being with us.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: WILL.I.AM: Thank you for having me.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: This song was so huge at the time. It still is. Why did you feel compelled to recast it?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: WILL.I.AM: So the first time we wrote "Where Is The Love?" was after 9/11. We went on tour 2001 on September the 12. And we saw what America felt like. We felt what America felt like. And the result was writing that song. And since then, horrific things have happened to the world.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: And we're witnessing, like, people with no empathy, no sympathy anymore - and then at the same time, like, amnesia, where something happens, we feel for it, and then a week later we, like, go back to that routine of forgetting. So we wanted to aim this song and remind people that there's still a lot of problems out there that need people's attention.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Did you think about how to make a bigger impact than you may have done with the original?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: WILL.I.AM: So the original was - it was a rinse. This is what we felt, and we rinsed it out and the liquid was "Where Is The Love?" Our tears, our thoughts - we rinsed it out. This one was - we rinse it out, and this water is going to the drought. And that drought is not getting our kids up to speed to compete and solve tomorrow's problems. There's kids in the inner city that are subject to crime and in and out of correctional facilities. So this rinsing out goes there.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Did you think about writing a different song about racial discrimination, about police brutality, about the failure of the education system? And if not, why? Why was it more powerful, in your mind, to go back to something that you'd already done?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: WILL.I.AM: So really, just those lyrics - Father, Father, Father, help us. Send some guidance from above 'cause people got me, got me questioning, where is the love? It's like a prayer, actually. I remember my grandma, she used to pray for us and say the our father prayer. She would repeat the same prayer to keep us guided where our heart is aimed at the right direction. So why don't we just take a deep breath, stop all this division, stop all this, like, is the media telling me that the world's racist or is the world racist? Or is it a lack of investment?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: It's really not racism. It's really just, like, this system that's in place that - we just have to look at it because the same folks that are filling up the prisons are the same folks that we neglected their education on. And it just so happens to be black people. So, yes, from that perspective, black lives matter. But all lives matter, all lives to pay attention to this system that we have to just, like, untangle.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: So you don't buy what you're saying is a narrative out there that America hasn't grappled with its racist past, that there is still racism in this country?</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: WILL.I.AM: People to people, no. The system, yes - that we have to look at. And the reason why it is because the people ain't paying attention. So it's - both are at fault.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: That was will.i.am talking about the Black Eyed Peas' remake of "Where Is The Love?"</s>THE BLACK EYED PEAS: Where is the love? Oversees, yeah, they're trying to stop terrorism. Where is the Love? Over here, on the streets...

Our panel of reporters talk about last night's Democratic presidential debate in Las Vegas. Joining Farai Chideya are Eddie Escobedo, founder and publisher of El Mundo newspaper in Las Vegas; Sean Gonsalves, a reporter for The Cape Cod Times; and Bob Butler, a reporter for KCBS Radio.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And we're going to carry this topic over to our Reporters' Roundtable. Today, we've got Eddie Escobedo. He's founder and publisher of El Mundo newspaper in Las Vegas. Also Sean Gonsalves, a reporter for The Cape Cod Times. And Bob Butler, a reporter for KCBS Radio in San Francisco. Welcome, folks.</s>Mr. EDDIE ESCOBEDO (Founder and Publisher, El Mundo Newspaper): All right. Thank you for having me.</s>Mr. SEAN GONSALVES (Reporter, Cape Cod Times): Thank you.</s>Mr. BOB BUTLER (Reporter, KCBS Radio, San Francisco): How are you?</s>Mr. SEAN GONSALVES (Reporter, Cape Cod Times): Very good, very good.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm great. So let's pick up with what happened last night and just put it in context. Eddie, Nevada is being called the Latino primary state because almost one in four Nevadans are of Latino descent. Do you think that that's a fair assessment?</s>Mr. EDDIE ESCOBEDO (Founder and Publisher, El Mundo Newspaper): Well, we were (audio gap) Nevadans were not satisfied with what happened last night because we wanted to talk about the local issues of state and, of course, city issues than - or what's affecting Nevada. And within - the only thing they discussed was the Yucca Mountain and, of course, the - illegal immigration. But there's some more issue that we are concerned with and we were not able to. And, of course, for some reason, I was not very satisfied with the way it was conducted because there was no exchange between the candidates and the moderator, and a lot of times, we didn't get the right answer, because they went around, not giving the specific answer, yes or no.</s>Mr. EDDIE ESCOBEDO (Founder and Publisher, El Mundo Newspaper): And so, even though we were very proud and very happy it happened here in Nevada and it was televised national - I mean, worldwide. So, definitely, that's a plus plus for Las Vegas. But here, again, we - Nevada residents were not happy because of the issues that were discussed here last night. Same issues. They have the war, the health care. But the issues that affect Nevada were not discussed.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, let met get Bob in here. Don't you think could be just fallout from the television era that people are not playing to the local audience, they're playing to the camera.</s>Mr. BOB BUTLER (Reporter, KCBS Radio, San Francisco): You know, I think that's true for all candidates. Nowadays, they know that every time that they say a word, it could be seen by the entire country. So, you might have people who are in Nevada but they're really thinking about that, you know, that state still up for grabs, some place in the Midwest or some place back east. So their messages are all - you know, I don't even think these people write their own messages anymore. I think the messages are written by strategists and spin doctors.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Sean, when you listened last night, did…</s>Mr. SEAN GONSALVES (Reporter, Cape Cod Times): Oh, forgive me, (unintelligible)?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Sean, when you listened last night, did you hear anything that stood out to you?</s>Mr. SEAN GONSALVES (Reporter, Cape Cod Times): You know, I got to say that I'm skeptical that these debates really change people's minds in any substantial way. I'm always kind of disappointed with the debates because I kind of like old school debates like, you know, Lincoln-Douglas types, you know, slug-them-out, you know, let's get down and nitty-gritty. And I don't know that Americans necessarily have the attention span for that. Certainly the formats aren't that way.</s>Mr. SEAN GONSALVES (Reporter, Cape Cod Times): I guess the thing that stood out to me was, you know, the setup to this whole thing was, you know, will Hillary be able to sort of recover after she seem like she did not so good on the 30th of October. But I thought she handled herself pretty well, although I think there were a couple of key questions that she very definitely maneuvered out of without answering too well.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, you know what, we are going to take a quick and be back with more of our Reporters' Roundtable. We are speaking with Sean Gonsalves, a reporter for the Cape Cod Times, Eddie Escobedo, founder and publisher of El Mundo Newspaper in Las Vegas, and Bob Butler, a reporter for KCBS Radio in San Francisco.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Just ahead, we continue to slice and dice the headlines on our Reporters' Roundtable. And in our family series, making the hard decision to sever family ties.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This is NPR News.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Welcome back to the Reporters' Roundtable. Today, I'm talking to Eddie Escobedo, he's the founder and publisher of El Mundo Newspaper in Las Vegas, Nevada. Sean Gonsalves is a reporter for the Cape Cod Times. And Bob Butler is a reporter for KCBS radio in San Francisco. Let's just pick up where we left off. I want to transition to a topic that is related to some of the national issues that got discussed in this debate. You have New York governor Eliot Spitzer reversing his controversial plan to provide undocumented workers with driver's licenses. He said it would improve public safety. He got an endorsement from New York senator Hillary Clinton. Since then, both elected officials have backed off and said that they do not support licenses for undocumented workers.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Bob, what do you think is going to be the fallout of this kind of reversal, particularly from a senator?</s>Mr. BOB BUTLER (Reporter, KCBS Radio, San Francisco): Well, I think, more than anything else - it takes me back to John Kerry and his reputation as being somebody who flip-flopped a lot. You know, that was exploited quite expertly by Karl Rove. And now Rove may not be involved with this campaign, but there must be other people that started under him that may do the same thing, and point out, well, you can't really count on her because she changes her mind too much.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, Eddie, do you think that this is an issue that is going to impact the national debate over undocumented workers?</s>Mr. EDDIE ESCOBEDO (Founder and Publisher, El Mundo Newspaper): Without a doubt, definitely. The reason why Senator Clinton goes along with the New York governor is because the Democratic Party is at stake. And it was a good thing for her to follow the footsteps of the governor, because otherwise, it would have been a controversy and the GOP would have (unintelligible) the Democrats regarding that particular issue. And that particular issue is not going to die until a new immigration reform or bill will apply. So, well, we just have to wait until a new president comes in.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Sean, when you take a look at this issue, how is it playing - Cape Cod is fairly remote from Nevada. How is it playing out for you?</s>Mr. SEAN GONSALVES (Reporter, Cape Cod Times): This is an area that is - immigration is a huge issue here, primarily because the economy here is primarily a female economy and quite a few service jobs. And so, there's a number of immigrant workers here, from Brazilians to eastern Europeans. And so, it's always a hot issue. But in here, just like across the country, its sort of divided by sort of the pragmatic approach, which I think is with this licensing issue is attempting to address it from a pragmatic stand point of view.</s>Mr. SEAN GONSALVES (Reporter, Cape Cod Times): And then the sort of ideological position, which is, you know - we've got to shut down the borders, we've got to, you know, kick all of the illegal immigrants out. But I think, you know, more pragmatically speaking - and I think this is what Obama was trying to convey in some way, is from a realistic standpoint of view, at least for the foreseeable future, I don't see how you're going to boot out every illegal immigrant anytime soon - if, in fact, that would even be a desirable thing to do.</s>Mr. SEAN GONSALVES (Reporter, Cape Cod Times): So, you know, very much here, in this area, it's a hot issue and it tends to fall on the side of shutting down the borders. In fact, we - you know, we've had a few people out from Massachusetts who call themselves the other minute men and who have even volunteered to join these militias and go down to the borders. And so, it's the rhetoric is so heated that it's very difficult to have a good conversation about it. It's kind of like the Palestinian-Israeli situation, it's one of those issues right now that seems intractable almost.

Veteran newsman Jim Lehrer has moderated 12 presidential debates. He tells NPR's Rachel Martin that successful moderation takes careful listening, not "nifty questions."

RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: This story is part of a reporting partnership with NPR, KPCC and Kaiser Health News. NBC host Matt Lauer was thrown into the lion's den this past week when he was tasked with hosting the Commander-In-Chief Forum, two back-to-back interviews with Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Critics piled on, saying Lauer didn't challenge Trump's claim that he's always been against the war in Iraq. We thought we'd call up someone who has been in that kind of hot seat.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Jim Lehrer hosted "The MacNeil/Lehrer Report," "The NewsHour With Jim Lehrer" and the "PBS Newshour" over many years and has moderated 12 presidential debates. He joins me now. Welcome to the program.</s>JIM LEHRER: Hey. Thank you, Rachel. It's a pleasure to be here.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: I am interested in your take on all the criticism that was levied at NBC's Matt Lauer after that town hall event. Did you think it was warranted?</s>JIM LEHRER: I think that what was missed in the criticism was that he was not moderating. He was interviewing. Those were two back-to-back, one-on-one interviews.</s>JIM LEHRER: And they're two very different workloads. And if they had been - for instance, if Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump had been together and Lauer was running a discussion between them, there wouldn't have been an issue about, for instance, when Donald Trump supported or didn't support the war in Iraq, etc., etc., etc. She would've taken him on right there.</s>JIM LEHRER: But if you're running a one-on-one interview, the interviewer is the one who has to say, no, no, no, wait a minute. What about this? What about this? What about that? What you don't want to do as a moderator is think you're doing interviews. You're not. That's a different game.</s>JIM LEHRER: You want to hear the candidates do the fact-checking, do the challenging, do the - hey, no, no, no, no, that's the wrong way to go at defeating ISIS. Here's my plan. Your plan stinks. Mine's better. You know, rather than the interviewer - to say, well, this is a different blah, blah, blah, let the candidates do it. Forget the questions. This isn't about questions. It's about subject. It's about listening to the candidates talk and deciding when to react and how to react and when to move on and when not to move on.</s>JIM LEHRER: It isn't about sitting down hours and hours and writing these really, really nifty questions that are going to turn somebody up and down - it's not about that.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Have you been seeing that in this election cycle and perhaps the last couple? Is there a different style moderators have taken where there is more of an interview approach, where they're grilling candidates in a different way?</s>JIM LEHRER: Well, there's always been a little bit of that. But now, see, the emphasis is all the other way. And people have not picked up on this. The 2012 presidential debates and the 2008 - it really began in 2008 - where there are 15-minute segments.</s>JIM LEHRER: And you ask a first question. And then it's open time between the candidates. And the moderator has to move it back and forth and whatever. And people - they can talk directly to each other, ask each other questions. I mean, the candidates can. And...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Do you think that's a good idea or no?</s>JIM LEHRER: Oh, I think it's terrific. I mean, I think a debate should be a debate between the candidates. And the other thing about moderating - right? - it's very different in that no matter what happens, a moderator is going to be criticized. If you don't want to be criticized, don't be a moderator of a presidential debate...</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: (Laughter).</s>JIM LEHRER: ...'Cause there's no way to win it.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: How did you measure success for yourself after you would come off one of these things?</s>JIM LEHRER: Well, the best example was the last one I did, which was in 2012. It was the first debate between Obama and Romney. And it was wide open. And I let it run. And I was criticized by some people after for doing it. But that was exactly what the debate commission wanted me to do and what I wanted to do.</s>JIM LEHRER: The chaos is when the real world starts. And that's what I think these debates should be - is real discussions, real exchanges between the candidates about things that matter. And as long as that's happening, to me, that's a successful debate.</s>RACHEL MARTIN, HOST: Jim Lehrer, thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with us.</s>JIM LEHRER: Oh, Rachel, the pleasure was mine.

Not everyone supports retroactive, lesser sentences for crack cocaine offenders. For more on that point of view, Farai Chideya talks with Chuck Canterbury, national president of the Fraternal Order of Police. He warns of "catastrophic public safety consequences" if prisoners are released before their original sentences are up.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: This is NEWS & NOTES. I'm Farai Chideya.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Earlier this month, new federal sentencing guidelines took effect for crack cocaine offenses. We just heard from an advocate who thinks people already in jail should have their sentences reduced in line with the new laws. But not everyone supports that plan.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Chuck Canterbury is national president of the Fraternal Order of Police, it's the largest law enforcement labor organization in the United States.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Chuck, welcome to the show.</s>Mr. CHUCK CANTERBURY (National President, Fraternal Order of Police): Thank you. I'm glad to be here.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So both you and Marc Mauer of the Sentencing Project, who we just heard from, testified on Capitol Hill earlier this week. And in your testimony, you warned of, quote "catastrophic public safety consequences if prisoners are released early." Why do you think that's the case?</s>Mr. CHUCK CANTERBURY (National President, Fraternal Order of Police): Well, I think, primarily, because 80 percent of the people that would be released are previously being convicted of crimes prior to this last arrest. Most of them have multiple prior convictions, and 35 percent of those that are in jail for crack possession possesses firearms during the commission of their crime.</s>Mr. CHUCK CANTERBURY (National President, Fraternal Order of Police): And if we could have - under the commission's own data, we could have a projected 2,500 this year alone, back out on the street, and 5,000 within 24 months. And with that, and with the recidivism rate for crack, we believe that there will be a rather large upswing in crack-related crimes.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, I want to get into two different areas. One is prison overcrowding, the other one is race and sentencing.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Some people have looked at this whole move by the Sentencing Commission and said, well, maybe it's partly about prison overcrowding. There are prisons, for example, in California where people are sleeping in gyms and, you know, quadrupling up in places that were supposed to be for two people. Does this have anything to do with the overcrowding issue, in your opinion?</s>Mr. CHUCK CANTERBURY (National President, Fraternal Order of Police): I believe it does. I believe that there is a underlying issue of finances because I heard of a witness testify that this would save $87 million annually to the federal prison system. And that's fairly significant dollar amounts for the every day person. But in the overall picture of the federal prison, $87 million versus the damage that criminals put on the victims in America, $87 million is not an equal wash.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What about the issue of race and sentencing? Powder cocaine much lower sentences, per gram. Is there any racial disparity in your mind or are there reasons why the crack cocaine sentences are higher?</s>Mr. CHUCK CANTERBURY (National President, Fraternal Order of Police): Well, there are reasons and - but we readily admit that there is a disparity. But when we testified earlier before the commission made the changes, we asked for an increase in the powder cocaine rather than reduce powder cocaine or crack cocaine. We thought they should be equal punishments, but then we thought that the punishment for the powder should move up rather than the other way around.</s>Mr. CHUCK CANTERBURY (National President, Fraternal Order of Police): Congress, originally, passed crack laws because of the huge upswing in crime when crack first hit the market. They talk about the chemical compound being very similar. Well, as a practitioner, I can tell you they may test out as the same drug in a lab. But on the street, they're two different products.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: When you look at the years that crack cocaine has been on the American drug market, do you see any successes?</s>Mr. CHUCK CANTERBURY (National President, Fraternal Order of Police): Yeah, but I believe the use of crack is actually down. But unfortunately, the use of crystal meth is up, and it's primarily based on socio-economic indicators rather than race, and its supply and demand. They've - they create cheaper drugs for people that can't afford them. And unfortunately, when they've done that, they've created two extremely dangerous drugs with crack and crystal meth.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, if the commission decides to retroactively sentence crack cocaine offenders and does release many of them, thousands of them, what do you think it's going to mean for police officers?</s>Mr. CHUCK CANTERBURY (National President, Fraternal Order of Police): I think it's going to be a huge upswing in crime, predominantly, thefts and assaults. And with the increased use of firearms in drug-related cases, I believe that the current upswing in officers being killed in line of duty will go up even higher.</s>Mr. CHUCK CANTERBURY (National President, Fraternal Order of Police): Now, we have a 40 percent increase this year. Over last year, an officer is killed in the line of duty, and a huge increase in assaults on police officers.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Do you get any feedback from neighborhoods in terms of, you know, community policing? Do you have any idea what community members think about the issue of releasing prisoners and/or bringing the sentences more in line with powder cocaine?</s>Mr. CHUCK CANTERBURY (National President, Fraternal Order of Police): From the community activists' standpoint, at the lowest level, the introduction of community policing teams in the neighborhoods that were crack ridden have been - and pardon the expression, but the saviors of those communities. And so most of the young activists that I have dealt with in the last 10 years have been extremely pleased that the sentences that - when we can get the federal authorities involved. And we got to understand, these are federal prisoners only. The vast majority of crack cocaine prosecutions are done at the state level. But the federal sentences have taken long-term drug dealers out of these neighborhoods and given these neighborhoods an opportunity to heal and work towards improvement.</s>Mr. CHUCK CANTERBURY (National President, Fraternal Order of Police): And I would think at the lowest level, the vast majority of activists in those communities - and I testified with the gentleman from a (unintelligible) program in Statesville, North Carolina that testified just to that fact that this has been the savior of the communities.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Chuck, thank you for speaking with us.</s>Mr. CHUCK CANTERBURY (National President, Fraternal Order of Police): Thanks for having us.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Chuck Canterbury is national president of the Fraternal Order of Police.

The roundtable continues with a conversation about the indictment of baseball's Barry Bonds on perjury charges. Joining Farai Chideya are Eddie Escobedo, founder and publisher of El Mundo newspaper in Las Vegas; Sean Gonsalves, a reporter for The Cape Cod Times; and Bob Butler, a reporter for KCBS Radio.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Bob, let's move on to Barry Bonds. He was indicted by a U.S. grand jury because of his alleged use of steroids. He says he never knowingly used performance-enhancing drugs. He could face up to 30 years imprisonment, steep fines. Does that potential punishment fit the crime if there was one?</s>Mr. BUTLER: Well, you know, the Bonds situation is so strange because at the time he was accused of using steroids, steroids were not banned by Major League Baseball. And now, people say they were against the law, but I mean, you know, athletes have gotten away with this kind of stuff for many, many, many years. We've learned that a lot of other people have been using steroids, too. Whether or not he faces 30 years in prison, I - that's debatable. I mean, he had no other criminal record. I mean, I don't know if will face that much time. I think the question really is, why Barry Bonds? Why is it, all of a sudden that Barry Bonds is the poster child for steroids use?</s>Mr. BUTLER: I don't have an answer to that question, but I think there is a lot of trouble. A lot of people will be calling talk radio shows here saying, you know, we don't care. We don't care, the guy's an athlete. He used steroids, so what? And then he's in trouble because the U.S. attorney says we asked him pointblank if he used them, he said no, and we have evidence to say that he was lying. Well, that's going to go to court, we'll see what happens when it goes to court.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Eddie, do you think if he's convicted, he can kiss that homerun record goodbye?</s>Mr. ESCOBEDO: I don't think they are going to. That record is going to stay there forever because he did it the way every other ballplayer have done it. And as like the previous young man says, that story has been used by other players. However, none of them has been banished as Bonds. And why Bonds? Why - because there is someone - his name was in every paper, his name was on every radio talk show and every TV show. And definitely, who are you going to pick, the guy that's on top, the same thing that they're doing on the political world. Who are they attacking, the leader. And definitely Bonds (unintelligible) the leader and that's reason why they go after him. Whether they're - he gets convicted, even if it is convicted, that record will remain forever.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Sean, do you agree? Do you think that it's not going to be wiped off the face of the history books? If, in fact…</s>Mr. GONSALVES: You know, I wouldn't be so confident because - and I'm - like these previous guests have mentioned, you know, I've - and I'm a baseball fanatic. I love baseball, loved it my whole life. I played baseball most of my life. I have a young son I hope will play, like the sport as well. But I've always been just perplexed at why it seems like this narrow focus has been on Barry Bonds. But listen, they way they've gone after Barry and everything, I wouldn't be surprised - particularly since Pete Rose has been banned from baseball, I would not be surprised. In fact, I would think it's more than likely that they would - that baseball will probably air on the side of banning - now what that means for his records, I don't know that.</s>Mr. GONSALVES: But it - for me, I've never been quite able to figure out why this focus has been almost solely on Barry Bonds, given, you know, I've got a number of questions. Our smaller ballparks - you know, for me, I am not even a believer necessarily that steroids is a performance-enhancing drug in baseball. In more physical sports like football, I can see it. Baseball, hitting a baseball and these kinds of things are so difficult, I'm just not convinced that it matters that much. And I think a lot of fans feel the same way.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Bob, before we let all three of you go, I want you to just tell us a little bit about Chauncey Bailey. He was honored at a California fallen journalist memorial wall, murdered in August while covering criminal allegations surrounding a Muslim bakery in Oakland. What were people saying about him as a person and as a reporter?</s>Mr. BUTLER: Well, I was at this - at Cal State north, where they had the ceremony. And what I was telling people was basically what - the kind of a person and the kind of a journalist Chauncey was. Chauncey was the kind of journalist that we all - we all know him. The guys that's at every event, always asks the first question. In fact, his boss called him the Helen Thomas of Bay Area journalists. And if you didn't answer the question, he was the guy that would ask for a follow-up, and if you didn't answer the question after the follow-up, he'd get you outside, to get you to answer the question. That's how he was as a journalist.</s>Mr. BUTLER: As a person - now, he started an elementary school newspaper in Detroit when he was there working for the Detroit News. And essentially, what he did was, he said, okay, these kids aren't reading the newspapers, so I'm going to start a newspaper at the school. And he would take it home - he got the kids put their papers into a box, the stories into a box. He would take the box home at night, on a Wednesday night, and would edit the newspapers on his typewriter. And then Thursday, would print them out and take them to the school on Friday, the kids will read the newspaper.</s>Mr. BUTLER: He would also bring newspapers on the bus, as he - on his way to work because he said he saw people sitting there, not doing anything but staring out the window. So he brought newspapers to them so they could read. The guy really cared about learning and education. He cared about people. And I've had - a few people here in the Bay Area say he was not, you know, a hero on the black community. He was a champion for the black community. He really cared.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, Bob. Bob, we're going to have to end it there, but we are certainly going to keep following this story. Gentlemen, thank you all so much.</s>Mr. GONSALVES: Oh, thanks for having me.</s>Mr. BUTLER: Thank you, Farai.</s>Mr. ESCOBEDO: Thank you, ma'am.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So, we're been speaking with Bob Butler, a reporter for KCBS radio in San Francisco, also a reporter with the Chauncey Bailey Project. That's a journalist collective dedicated to investigating Bailey's death. Also, Eddie Escobedo, founder and publisher of El Mundo Newspaper in Las Vegas, Nevada, and Sean Gonsalves, a reporter for the Cape Cod Times.

She was a pioneer with the Motown label, but it took Stax Records to make her a million-seller. NPR's Tony Cox talks with veteran R&B singer Mable John about how music legends inspired the range in her voice.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Tony, I guess there will always be some kind of history made every day.</s>TONY COX, host: You know, some of it good. Some of it, not so good.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And while some of it is well-publicized, sometimes, notable history goes under the radar.</s>TONY COX, host: Now, that's true.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm thinking of your interview with Mable John.</s>TONY COX, host: Oh, yeah. Now, this is a woman with an interesting past.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): (Singing) My name is Mable and don't you think I ain't able.</s>TONY COX, host: The 77-year-old Louisiana native has been a top R&B singer, a successful novelist, a pastor, an activist and a movie actor, and I found out that Mable John is full of stories like the one about the time she met record mogul Berry Gordy before Motown was even Motown.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): (Singing) That you're leaving.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): How I met Berry? That was at a barber shop on (unintelligible) that was near the fine show bar, and at that time men were wearing process. Process is the (unintelligible). And I was dating a guy that was one of those process operators in the Chesterfield lounge and barbershop, and Berry was coming and getting his hair done. I was coaching choirs for my church. And my boyfriend introduced me to Berry Gordy because Berry said he was a songwriter and he was going to have a lot of people recording his songs. And my boyfriend said you need to stop doing all of this work for the church free, and that Berry Gordy do something with you so you can get paid. So he introduced me to Berry Gordy.</s>TONY COX, host: Now, tell us the story. We're going to skip around a little bit.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): Okay.</s>TONY COX, host: When you and Berry Gordy connected, as Motown was just becoming a company, a record company, you are the first female to record on a label, the Tamla label.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): Yes.</s>TONY COX, host: Before Motown.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): The first single female artist, because Claudette Robinson was a part of what become the Miracles, and he was managing them along with me.</s>TONY COX, host: Right.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): So I was the first single female artist to be signed to Tamla, which is a part of the Motown family.</s>TONY COX, host: When you think about that now, how do you feel about looking at that as a historic moment?</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): No one could have bought that time. God had to give it to me.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): (Singing) Hey. Hey.</s>TONY COX, host: I understand that you were rehearsing one day and these three young girls came in and interrupted your rehearsal.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): The girls that we know now as The Supremes. They came into a rehearsal that I was doing with Berry Gordy because he played also for me, played piano for me. We were there rehearsing and these girls came in and I didn't quite remember everything that was said that day because it's been so long. But Mary Wilson of The Supremes, remembered when she was writing her book to say that when she first walked into Motown, the three of them walked in and my question to Berry Gordy was, why are they walking in on my rehearsal, because all of our rehearsals were private.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): (Singing) It takes a more than 'em flashy old money and I wink from the corner of your eye. I don't want no big line calls, (unintelligible) caviar. Oh no, true love baby can be found 'cause you take a look around.</s>TONY COX, host: Talking about faith. Your career at Motown never really took off, and after some few years, you decided to go to Memphis, where you joined the Stax label and hooked up with Porter and Isaac Hayes. And then, it was long after that that you had a million seller.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): Right. Well, Motown, Berry Gordy, they were all along with God and my parents a part of my future. So Motown was my beginning. It was one that was different from everywhere else I've ever been. But I think it was a necessary one to make the transition for me from Motown to Stax.</s>TONY COX, host: Now, your big song at Stax, one of your - the biggest of your songs was…</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): The biggest of all songs.</s>TONY COX, host: "Your Good Thing is About to End."</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): "…Is About to End." Right. Right.</s>TONY COX, host: See, I'm old enough to have remembered that song.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): Well, that's good. That makes me feel you don't have to be very old to remember that.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): (Singing) I don't have to beg you to hold me 'cause somebody else will. You don't have to love me when I want it, 'cause somebody else will.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): It was a story that I needed to tell because of a bad marriage. And at Stax, they would allow you to be yourself. Everybody participated in whatever success you're going to have, everybody, including the drummer.</s>TONY COX, host: Really? Tell me about your family. And I'm switching to that for a reason because you were one of 10 children, right?</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): The oldest…</s>TONY COX, host: The oldest of 10.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): …of 10 children.</s>TONY COX, host: And you happen to have a little brother, a baby brother who was a big time performer, Little Willie John.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): Yes. Little Willie John. William Edward John. Now, when I got with Willy that was another education.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): Because he said my name is Little Willie John. It might be William Edward John to you, and you're my sister and I love you. But if you're not good, I'm going to send you home.</s>TONY COX, host: Obviously, you are good.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): Well, he let me stay.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): (Singing) You have all the love that I've got. Even ice melts to water and gets hot. Look out, your good thing is about to come to an end. Your real good thing…</s>TONY COX, host: You were the leader of the Raelettes for a dozen years.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): Yes.</s>TONY COX, host: Traveling all over with and without Ray Charles.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): With and without Ray Charles. Yes.</s>TONY COX, host: In the movie, "Ray," I had looked in the credits to see if there were someone who played you…</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): No.</s>TONY COX, host: …since you have been a Raelette for so long, and I saw that there wasn't one.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): No.</s>TONY COX, host: And is there a reason for that?</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): Well, it was the years before I came.</s>TONY COX, host: Okay.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): And I tell everybody that asks me, the best of his life were the years after the movie. When I came to work with him, he sat me down and told me all about his beginning, told me all about things that ticks him off and things that excite him, what he was looking for and how he wanted it. And I knew that being with him would finish me in this industry…</s>TONY COX, host: Now, when he…</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): …because he was at the top - complete me.</s>TONY COX, host: Okay.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): So that I could work for any audience, sing any kind of songs. Remember now, at the beginning I thought I could only sing gospel. With Berry Gordy, I found out I could sing the blues. I went to Stax and I find out I could sing love songs. I got with Ray Charles and we sang country - everything. And we could play to any audience. I wanted to sing what was in my heart to everybody that loves music, and Ray Charles was the place for me to be, to do that.</s>TONY COX, host: So the Raelettes - would you say that was the highlight of your career?</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): It was a highlight. It was highlight because I learned things about myself, about my career, about the industry. I was able to set up my own publishing companies and production companies because of the knowledge that I gained with and from Ray Charles.</s>TONY COX, host: And after all of that, Mable John, your career did not stop. It has gone on into movies, into - you've written a couple of novels.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): Excuse me. I just finished the third.</s>TONY COX, host: Oh, number three. You've done three novels. You're a minister.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): Yes.</s>TONY COX, host: And you started a church.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): Yes.</s>TONY COX, host: And you help the homeless.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): Yes.</s>TONY COX, host: And you're a grandmother.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): A great-grandmother.</s>TONY COX, host: And a great-grandmother. How is it possible for one person to do all of those things and to do them as successfully as you have?</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): It's all God. Some days, when people are telling me how busy I am. And when I sit down to think about it, I get tired.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): So I don't. I don't go there. I just get up every morning and I thank God for the activity of that day. And I have to thank a woman that's no longer with us, Ms. Billie Holiday, because that's the voice that I hear in my ear still to this day. I worked with her two weeks before she passed. And she said to me, Honey - because I was frightened out of my wits - you can make it if you remember. Always know when you have done or given enough. Not to be afraid and have guts enough to say I quit.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): (Singing) Even ice melts to water and gets hot…</s>TONY COX, host: It's so nice talking with you. Thank you for coming in.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): I thank you.</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): (Singing) Your good thing is about to come to an end. Your real good thing…</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That was NPR's Tony Cox with singer, author and actor Mable John. Look for Mable John in the upcoming John Sayles film, "Honeydripper."</s>Ms. MABLE JOHN (Singer): (Singing) Getting myself back together.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: That's our show for today, and thank you sharing your time with us. To listen to the show or subscribe to our podcast, visit our Web site, nprnewsandnotes.org. No spaces, just nprnewsandnotes.org.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: To join the conversation or sign up for our newsletter, visit our blog at nprnewsandviews.org. NEWS & NOTES was created by NPR News and the African-American Public Radio consortium. Tomorrow, a reporter shares Donda West's last interview.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya. This is NEWS & NOTES.

Today's snapshot comes from actor and playwright Jeff Obafemi Carr. He tells his story of what can happen when a long lost friend reappears. Carr is an actor, playwright, and co-host of the radio show "Freestyle."

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: And the final thought today, this time from actor and playwright Jeff Obafemi Carr. If you live long enough, people will come and go from your life. Jeff Obafemi Carr tells us his story of what can happen when the long lost reappear.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor and Playwright): I wasn't expecting to see anyone I knew that afternoon. I was leaving my office talking to my 12-year-old daughter about her school day. And as we were getting into the car, I noticed this cat sitting on the bench smoking a cigarette. I half-nodded the obligatory, what's up black man, and started to get in my car.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor and Playwright): He took a long drag on the cigarette and said, you don't remember me, do you? I stood up and looked at him squarely. Looking into his eyes, I use peripheral vision to instantly scan his somewhat skeletal face, receding hairline, and dark mouth. I wasn't sure where I knew him from, but he was vaguely familiar.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor and Playwright): You did a good job in that movie playing that preacher. That told me two things. He had seen the "Second Chance" and he recognized me from it. I still didn't remember him, though. But I'm always thankful when someone thinks enough of me to pay my work a compliment, so I said, I appreciate that brother, man. Thank you. And started back into the car.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor and Playwright): You still stay out south? Uh-oh. This cat knew where I grew up? Yeah, I still stay in the neighborhood. He leaned forward and took another drag before flicking away the cigarette. What's your brother Greg doing these days? Wait a minute. This cat knew me. I explained that Greg was now a popular professor at Howard University and that a lot of people in the neighborhood had gone on to success, blah, blah, blah. I was trying to buy time to recall something, anything about this face I did not know that would trigger a memory.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor and Playwright): You still don't remember me, do you? I told him that I remembered him from out south - only a half-truth. I started a fight with you when we were at J.T. Moore. J.T. Moore Junior High School? You've got to be kidding me, I thought to myself. I was what? 12 years old? That was a long time ago, man.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor and Playwright): He then went on to describe the day it happened, the crew he was hanging around, the trouble he was trying to make, the other brothers that gassed him up to jump into my face and start a raucous in the hallway.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor and Playwright): Listening intently, I looked underneath the furrowed brow and through the aged expression that looked 10 years my senior now, and I remembered him. Vaguely, yes, but remembered still.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor and Playwright): I asked him how he was doing now. He told me that he had continued on a downward spiral through high school and had recently been released from a stretch in the penitentiary. He told me he was struggling with some things right now. And when I noted that he was sitting outside the waiting area of the Methadone Clinic, it didn't take me too long to put two and two together.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor and Playwright): We reminisced about the good and the bad old days, about the mutual people we knew, who were either dead, on that stuff, or on lockdown somewhere. And we finally came back to the present when he said, I'm really proud of you, brother.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor and Playwright): It almost became an awkward pause. You know, when brothers say things that touch each other, we often don't know how to accept it. But I recovered quickly by saying, brother, we're both still standing here today, and in America, that's a big deal. So we're proud of each other. Then he caught me totally off guard.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor and Playwright): He rose up and walked toward me, gave me the grip and then he hugged me. I mean, that brother hugged me like I was family, then he looked me square in the eye and said, man, I just want to apologize for starting that fight with you. My life just hadn't been right and I'm trying to do right now. I hope you can find it in your heart to forgive me. I couldn't shake the pause this time because I needed it to get myself together. I nodded, assured him that there was no harm, no foul, got into the car and drove off slowly.</s>Mr. JEFF OBAFEMI CARR (Actor and Playwright): I asked my daughter if she'd heard the conversation. She did. Did she learn any lessons? Yes. The same once I had. Kids will be kids. But most importantly, it's good to forgive, even when you've forgotten what or even who it's for.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Jeff Obafemi Carr is an actor, playwright and co-host of the radio show "Freestyle." He lives in Nashville, Tennessee.

News & Notes Web producer Geoffrey Bennett talks about the stories making the rounds on our blog, "News & Views," and shares tips on finding online holiday travel deals.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya and this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: N-word, mea culpas and the D-list celebs who love them. That's just one of the hot topics on our blog News & Views. Geoffrey Bennet is the Web producer for NEWS & NOTES. He's joining me now to talk about this and more. Hey.</s>GEOFFREY BENNET: Hey. How are you?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm good. So last week, you linked to an op-ed about celebrities making public apologies for using the N word and it got people talking. What's the latest?</s>GEOFFREY BENNET: We have (unintelligible) to the controversy surround Dog the Bounty Hunter who was caught using the N-word on tape six times in one and a half minutes. Other writers suggested that people like Dog and Michael Richards who go through this routine of getting caught, publicly apologizing and then seeking clemency from people like Al Sharpton, actually raises their public profiles.</s>GEOFFREY BENNET: Well, Alida(ph) who reads our blog wrote this. Given how ubiquitous offensive words are in the U.S. vernacular, I think we are seeing a shift in what we think a bigot is. It used to be simple. Bigots had a certain level of racial animus. But now, some blacks are trying to convince us that such words are terms of endearment. And we wonder how other folks can find themselves confused and put Sharpton's number on speed dial.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Well, we've also been talking about a study showing a growing income disparity between blacks and whites. What's going on there?</s>GEOFFREY BENNET: Well, we went to the analysis of that study showing how many blacks are falling out of the middle class. NEWS & VIEWS reader Moji(ph) says this downward mobility has to do with quote, "the glorification of athletes, rappers and singers and the devaluation of education in our community."</s>GEOFFREY BENNET: But another reader named Rachel(ph) says, I think the widening income disparity between the super rich and the rest of us has a lot to do with this phenomenon perhaps more than the glorification of the gangster life. It takes a lot more income than it used to to live the American dream.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: There's also been a lot of reverb about a federal probe into the finances of six prominent Evangelists.</s>GEOFFREY BENNET: That was actually the most popular post on our blog last week. And lots of people had things to say about preachers potentially profiting from their flocks. A reader named Bill O'Brien(ph) says people who attain wealth through religious teachings are charlatans. Mega churches should be taxed as the businesses that they are today.</s>GEOFFREY BENNET: But Joe Jordan(ph) says one can be financially transparent and still exercise extremely poor judgment. The big question leaders in any venue need to ask is, does this decision demonstrate personal integrity, good judgment and a genuine commitment to serving and not taking?</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm looking ahead. We are going forth into the holiday season. You wouldn't happen to have some Web-based news you can use for travel.</s>GEOFFREY BENNET: Actually, I do. You can call it an early gift from NEWS & VIEWS. We posted some advice on booking cheap travel for the holidays. Most people know about sites like Orbits and Expedia, but they're actually some newer, lesser known sites they can actually get to a better deal. So we posted links to all of those and some tips on what to do to save time and money once you arrive to wherever you're going this season.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right. I've got to check that out, time to make the Christmas reservations. Geoff, thanks So much.</s>GEOFFREY BENNET: Thank you.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Geoffrey Bennet is the Web producer from News & NOTES.

This week, Bill Fletcher discusses escalating violence in Somalia, rising political tensions between Ethiopia and Eritrea, and the latest on the North-South dispute in Sudan. Fletcher is the senior scholar with the Institute for Policy Studies and former president of TransAfrica Forum.

FARAI CHIDEYA, host: I'm Farai Chideya and this is NEWS & NOTES.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: It's time now for our Africa update. This week, escalating violence in Somalia, plus rising political tensions between Ethiopia and Eritrea, and the latest on the north-south dispute in Sudan.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: For more, we've got Bill Fletcher, a senior scholar with the Institute for Policy Studies and former president of TransAfrica Forum.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Hi, Bill.</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Senior Scholar, Institute for Policy Studies; Former President, TransAfrica Forum): Hey, glad to be back.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Yeah, great to have you on. So, let's talk - we're really talking about the east of the continent and the last week, dozens people have been killed in heavy fighting in and around Somalia's capital, Mogadishu. Tens of thousands of people have fled the area, journalists have been killed, Ethiopian troops were killed as well, and one dead soldier's body was dragged through the streets. What's behind all these violence?</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Senior Scholar, Institute for Policy Studies; Former President, TransAfrica Forum): The invasion has failed. The Ethiopian invasion, fundamentally, has failed. The transitional government that was put in is attempting to suppress opposition, not just the Islamists, but also trying to suppress the media itself, and so tension is arising.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Give us a little bit of background - just briefly, we've talked about this. But on the question of the Ethiopians being in Somalia, give us the backgrounder on that.</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Senior Scholar, Institute for Policy Studies; Former President, TransAfrica Forum): The Union of Islamic Courts, an Islamist group, which is something along the lines of the Taliban, succeeded in taking over some - a good chunk of Somalia and restricting the ability of the clans to create chaos. The Ethiopian government was deeply worried about the situation there. There has been historical antagonisms between Ethiopia and Somalia. And with the apparent encouragement of the U.S. government, the Bush administration, Ethiopia invaded Somalia, routed the Union of Islamic Courts and everyone thought that that was that - or at least many people thought that was that. The Islamists regrouped and they've been conducting a guerilla war against Ethiopians and the Somali allies.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, last week, Ethiopia deployed 2,000 more troops to Mogadishu. Some people blame the violence on the resentment towards the Ethiopian troops who monitor the area. What about civilians? How were they caught in this conflict?</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Senior Scholar, Institute for Policy Studies; Former President, TransAfrica Forum): There has been a humanitarian disaster that's been unfolding in Somalia, massive emigration of people out of Mogadishu - the United Nations is very worried - and in addition, Somalia has not been receiving the sorts of international aid that it needs to deal with the civilian refugees. So the situation is quite dramatic and unfortunately, it's not getting the kind of attention it needs here in the United States.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: So you have Ethiopia and Somalia, and now you have Ethiopia and Eritrea - neighboring nations. Is this a border war?</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Senior Scholar, Institute for Policy Studies; Former President, TransAfrica Forum): This is one of the greatest tragedies of the last decade. Here you have two countries that's succeeded in building a - something close to a partnership through the overthrow of the Ethiopian junta that was called the Derg in early '90s. Eritrea achieved independence, and there was collaboration, and there was even talk of some sort of regional alignment that could take place between the two countries.</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Senior Scholar, Institute for Policy Studies; Former President, TransAfrica Forum): And then things started to unravel. And it's basically - what seems to be at route is a level of political opportunism that first emerged in Ethiopia, but now, I must say, also in Eretria, where the leadership is trying desperately to hold on to power, and it's fanning the flames of nationalism and war.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: What territory are they really fighting over?</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Senior Scholar, Institute for Policy Studies; Former President, TransAfrica Forum): It's an area that's almost a - there's really almost nothing there. It's 25 kilometers round in a town called Badme, B-A-D-M-E. And it's not exactly what you'd call an oasis. And that's why many observers, in looking at the situation, say, no, no, no. This is not about the territory. This is about something else.</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Senior Scholar, Institute for Policy Studies; Former President, TransAfrica Forum): And unfortunately, I think that the something else is that it becomes a convenient means for the Ethiopian government, which refuses to implement the border commission resolution of the crisis. It becomes a means for them to rally the troops against the evil bogeymen in Eritrea. It's almost like the beginning of World War I.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Are you saying then that this is, in some ways, a fictional conflict -a real conflict with nothing more than mutual animosity fueling it?</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Senior Scholar, Institute for Policy Studies; Former President, TransAfrica Forum): It's close to a fictional conflict. What's at stake, what's being said that's at stake really does not pass the straight-face test. The Ethiopians are clearly violating the agreement that was established by the border commission. That is true. At the same time, the Eritreans are not permitting peacekeepers to fully observe the territory that's in dispute. So when you have a situation like that, and you have two very well-armed militaries, you have a recipe for a potential disaster.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Now, Ethiopia has been considered a key U.S. ally in the war on terrorism, and Eritrea has been considered as possibly being added to the list of states that sponsor terrorism. What happened there?</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Senior Scholar, Institute for Policy Studies; Former President, TransAfrica Forum): It was a reckless, reckless move by the Bush administration, describing Eritrea as potentially sponsoring terrorism. There's absolutely no foundation for this. But what it does is that it gives militaristic elements in Ethiopia, the idea that they have the green light to potentially attack Eritrea and have the support of the United States. It was the most idiotic move that anyone could imagine, where you have a situation that could blow up at any moment.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Let's turn briefly to Sudan. There is a truce between north and south. Could be unraveling, what is the latest on that?</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Senior Scholar, Institute for Policy Studies; Former President, TransAfrica Forum): Two years ago, there - a truce was signed. As you know, between the north and the south, ending a civil war that essentially started in the early 1960s. Some would say it started actually in the 1950s. And the northern government based in Khartoum under President al-Bashir was supposed to take several steps, including confirming a border between the north and the south, taking political steps or steps towards political reform, and third, working out agreements around the issue of oil, because oil have been discovered in the southern Sudan, which is what this dispute is really largely about.</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Senior Scholar, Institute for Policy Studies; Former President, TransAfrica Forum): The al-Bashir government, by most accounts, has taken very few steps and appears to have been stalling. The southern - the Sudanese People's Liberation Movement, which is the major force in the south, essentially had enough and withdrew its representatives from the government, from the Government of National Unity, said that al-Bashir must follow through or they're no longer going to participate in the Government of National Unity.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Again, very briefly, what's the worst-case scenario here if there's no resolution?</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Senior Scholar, Institute for Policy Studies; Former President, TransAfrica Forum): The worst-case scenario is implosion; that Sudan, basically, unravels by a combination of the southern conflict, the Darfur situation, and the struggle for democracy that's taking place in the north. A less-than-worst-case scenario is that we'll have a long-term stalemate, something along the lines of what's taking place in the Western Sahara, where you have armed camps that are more or less not fighting each other on a regular basis, but with a country that's divided.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: All right, Bill, thank you so much.</s>Mr. BILL FLETCHER (Senior Scholar, Institute for Policy Studies; Former President, TransAfrica Forum): Thank you as always.</s>FARAI CHIDEYA, host: Bill Fletcher is a senior scholar with the Institute for Policy Studies and the former president of TransAfrica Forum. He spoke with us from NPR's Washington D.C. headquarters.

Oprah Winfrey isn't changing — she's "evolving," the media mogul recently told a magazine. And our humorist Brian Unger is following suit as he examines the path of personal evolution.

ALEX CHADWICK, host: Now, from the Unger Report, a question, are you going through changes in your life? Maybe a new job, a new relationship? How about just a different toothpaste. Our humorist, Brian Unger, says you might be evolving.</s>BRIAN UNGER: Oprah Winfrey is on the cover of Black Enterprise Magazine this month. Now you probably remember when she was on the cover back in 1986, and you're asking, hey, Oprah, what has changed since then? Well, the answer according to Oprah, nothing. In 22 years, Oprah says nothing about her has changed. In Oprah's world, there's still a Camaro in her driveway. Kurt Waldheim is president of Austria, and bacon is $1.75 per pound. Nothing has changed.</s>BRIAN UNGER: But what she does say is very interesting. Oprah says, quote, "I've evolved." Oprah has evolved right into her brand new yet to be launched very own cable TV network, called "OWN" which is going to be on the air very soon because an hour of Oprah a day is just not enough.</s>BRIAN UNGER: So how do we know, or how does Oprah know she's evolving? And what will she look like to archeologists in one million years, when they find petrified Oprah in a forest, will they say, "she was very evolved?" Is evolving painful? More importantly, who can evolve and who can't? Well, I can tell you that I'm pretty sure I'm evolving too. Into a new more expensive apartment next week and it hurts. Now I'm not changing addresses, I'm evolving into a new address because I got robbed at my old address. Two gang bangers standing in my driveway with all my stuff in their van caused me to evolve.</s>BRIAN UNGER: Now Oprah and I are not the only two people who are evolving. Other big names say they have evolved. Like Hillary Clinton on gay issues.</s>Senator HILLARY CLINTON (Democrat, New York): Well I am very much in favor of civil unions with full equality of benefits.</s>BRIAN UNGER: George Bush's reasons for being in Iraq have evolved, or at least mutated. That annoying man on NBC, Jim Kramer.</s>Mr. JIM KRAMER (Host, "Mad Money"): He has no idea.</s>BRIAN UNGER: He says he evolved when it comes to buying stocks.</s>Mr. JIM KRAMER (Host, "Mad Money"): They no nothing.</s>BRIAN UNGER: And the pop singer, Ciara. She says she evolved too. I don't even know who she is and she's evolved. This is what she sounds like now.</s>Ms. CIARA: (Singing) Try and</s>BRIAN UNGER: And this is what she sounds like two seconds later.</s>Ms. CIARA: (Singing) Watching me...</s>BRIAN UNGER: Her music actually gets worse the longer you listen to it. That is evolutionary. So next time someone comes up to you and says hey, you've changed. You say, hey, oh no, I've evolved. Thanks, Oprah. And that is today's Unger Report. I'm Brian Unger.</s>BRAND: Speaking of evolving, you can take your Unger with you as a podcast. The Unger Report, as well as this entire show is available as a podcast, go to npr.org/podcast.

The last Democratic primaries will take place in Montana and South Dakota on Tuesday. NPR Senior Washington Editor Ron Elving discusses this and the resolution of the Michigan and Florida delegate problem with host Alex Chadwick.

ALEX CHADWICK, host: This is Day to Day. I'm Alex Chadwick.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: I'm Madeleine Brand. Coming up, a volcano of mud on the Indonesian Island of Java.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Hey, a volcano of mud. How about tomorrow's primaries in Montana and South Dakota. Democratic politics come to the end of the primary season and still no candidate. NPR's Senior Washington Editor Ron Elving is here. Ron, I said no candidate, actually too many candidates perhaps? No solution. No nominee. Hillary did better than expected in yesterday in Puerto Rico, but Politico.com is reporting today that she is cutting loose some campaign staffers. What does all this mean?</s>RON ELVING: It means that we are at the end of the schedule, as you say, and there's really not much point in having advanced people running around the country, setting up events if all the voting is over in the states and territories and we've had something like 57 different events in states and territories. And it's really all coming down to negotiations and meetings of committees and things of that nature. And really you don't need an advanced staff for that. It's time to pull in the tentacles and decide what the Clinton campaign does next.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Wouldn't you still need an advanced staff if you were thinking of running a presidential campaign?</s>RON ELVING: Possibly if you were thinking of running one in the fall, and it is not clear at this time how Hillary Clinton would claim the nomination of the Democratic Party. Her best chance to really change the dynamic went up went out the door with the Rules and Bylaws Committee on Saturday which essentially seated the delegations as we knew they had to do, but cut their votes by half. And also a portion of the delegates in a manner, in Michigan that really doesn't help Hillary Clinton at all. And what she got out of Florida was, of course, reduced by half. So, she didn't get nearly the benefit she had hoped for there and while she did do very well in Puerto Rico, even exceeding expectations, there just weren't that many delegates to be gained there. And so, at the end of the day, she still needs to turn an enormous number of superdelegates her way and it doesn't seem to be happening.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Well, the superdelegates have been asked by party leaders, and there's a lot of talk that Wednesday is their day, all the voting will be done. Is there a day to come out and say, OK, this is where we are? Is that going to happen?</s>RON ELVING: Yes, I think largely it will. Bear in mind that many of these superdelegates are members of Congress, about 15 Senators, a much larger number of members of the House. And they have been telling their constituents back home, let's let everybody vote. Let's hear from the last states and territories and then we'll decide, as superdelegates, what we think we ought to do. Also there are many personal promises out there. Where the Clintons, and I say that plural, both Hillary and Bill, have implored people, please don't commit. If you can't be with us, just don't say anything until all the voting is over. Give us every opportunity to make our case. And of course, we'll also be at the end of that scheme.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: So, if Barack Obama gets to the new magic number, which is 2,118 now.</s>RON ELVING: That's it. I feel a tingle when you just say that number, Alex.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: If he gets there, is there any where that Senator Clinton can stay in this race and say, actually it's still not over yet and here's why, I could still be the nominee?</s>RON ELVING: Only this, that as Terry McCall her Campaign Chairman said yesterday, superdelegates can change their minds. So, if he has an absolute, that is to say that Barack Obama has a absolute majority among pledged delegates, which it seems he will have, and if he also has a clear majority among superdelegates, well, those are the only kinds of delegates there are. If he's got a majority in both, it's over. Unless, of course, some untoward event were to cause a substantial number of superdelegates to change their minds; to reverse course.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Meanwhile, Senator Obama is going to be, tomorrow, not in Montana or South Dakota, where the voting is taking place, but in the Twin Cities, in Minnesota. Why is he there?</s>RON ELVING: Yes, he's going to be in St. Paul in the very hall where John McCain will be claiming his nomination in the first week of September. He is going to be in the room, probably very near the very spot where the Republicans are going to nominate their nominee for president. And this is their way, in a sense, issuing a challenge, of tossing down the gauntlet whatever you want to call it? And saying we are already here. We're fighting against John McCain now. We are totally focused on John McCain. Whatever else goes on within the Democratic Party is just a mopping up operation.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: NPR's senior Washington editor, Ron Elving. Ron. Enough of the Democrats, let's talk next week about Senator McCain.</s>RON ELVING: I think we should.

Americans are furious about paying $4 a gallon, but the pump price in Britain is more than twice that. In California, lawmakers are considering a bill where drivers in car-happy Los Angeles County pay higher fees to fund public transportation projects.

ALEX CHADWICK, host: It's Day to Day from NPR News, I'm Alex Chadwick.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: I'm Madeleine Brand. Although oil prices have actually dropped a little bit over the last two weeks, gas prices have not and four dollars a gallon? That's a reality in many U.S. cities.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: How about the equivalent of nine dollars a gallon? That's what British motorists are paying. And like drivers here in this country, many are very unhappy about the price. Here's a little sample of opinion from London.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Unidentified Male #1: Basically we will moan and groan and everything else, but when it comes actually to doing something about it, we let it be.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Unidentified Male #2: I mean what the price of fuel's gone up over a pound in not even a year?</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Unidentified Male #3: Yeah, it's getting a bit on the ridiculous side. Not much we can do about it.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Unidentified Male #1: It's just a rip off. It's going up about a penny every day.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Unidentified Male #4: I think the government should cut the rate of tax on fuel.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Unidentified Male #1: You know if I had my fare going up a penny everyday, I'd be a millionaire.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: British motorists complaining about the high price of fuel in that country.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Here in the States, while consumers are worrying about prices, some lawmakers are trying to tackle global climate change. In southern California, a lawmaker is pushing a plan that would reduce greenhouse gasses and road congestion. Nate Berg reports.</s>NATE BERG: At more than four dollars a gallon, gas prices are already too high for many Angelinos. But a new bill moving its way through the state legislature could push that price up another nine cents. All that loose change would add up to create a county public transportation fund worth more than 400 million dollars a year.</s>Mr. MIKE FEUER (Democrat, California State Assembly): The status quo is not acceptable.</s>NATE BERG: That's Mike Feuer a Democrat in the California state Assembly. He represents Los Angeles and is the author of the bill.</s>Mr. MIKE FEUER (Democrat, California State Assembly): No one would say that we can be sanguine about the impact of global warming. No one would say that L.A. status as the number one sore place for air pollution in the country ought to continue to be so. And no one would say we have a muscular public transport infrastructure here in Los Angeles. The question is what are we going to do about it?</s>NATE BERG: What he wants to do is let LA's transit agency, the Metropolitan Transportation Authority bring his funding idea before the county's voters. The MTA can either ask voters to support the gas fee, or an additional fee of up to ninety dollars on their annual car registrations. The money it raises would fund public transit projects and programs aimed at reducing greenhouse gas emissions. In a county with nearly six million registered drivers, getting enough voters behind the bill will be a challenge. But Feuer thinks it can be done and now's the time to do it.</s>Mr. MIKE FEUER (Democrat, California State Assembly): For the first time here in Los Angeles there's a real openness to thinking in new ways about how we get from one place to another. I clearly think the time is right here because of that awareness, to try and give voters these kinds of choices.</s>NATE BERG: But for industries that rely on gasoline, a rise in price is a tough sell.</s>Mr. ANTOINE ROYSTER (Board of Directors, Greater California Livery Association): You're asking one segment to help another segment I think it's just unfair.</s>NATE BERG: Antoine Royster is on the board of directors of the Greater California Livery Association, which represent limousine drivers in California. Los Angeles is a major market for limos and when gas prices rise, limo prices rise.</s>Mr. ANTOINE ROYSTER (Board of Directors, Greater California Livery Association): We have to pass on those additional fees to the client, bottom line. It's affecting not only us, but our clientele.</s>NATE BERG: Americans pay some of the lowest taxes on gasoline in the world. And Feuer says taxpayers are going to have to play a bigger role in funding transit if it's ever going to improve. Much of the burden he says is going to have to fall on the driver. At this old service station in busy central Los Angeles, Autta Mann (ph) and Rudolph Porter (ph) are filling up their tanks. Like every other driver questioned here they are not happy about Feuer's proposal.</s>Ms. AUTTA MANN: It just seems like we're already paying so much for gas.</s>Mr. RUDOLPH PORTER: I don't like the idea. I think gas is high enough and I think that they need to find the money elsewhere.</s>NATE BERG: For public transportation systems, finding the money elsewhere is already happening. They couldn't stay in operation without government and taxpayer money. But getting money directly from drivers is relatively new territory. And while it may make LA drivers uneasy, for bus riders like Chris Griffin (ph).</s>Mr. CHRIS GRIFFIN: I think it's an awesome idea.</s>NATE BERG: Griffin is riding a bus down L.A.'s Wilshire Boulevard.</s>Mr. CHRIS GRIFFIN: Yeah, I pay taxes on a lot of stuff that I don't use.</s>NATE BERG: Feuer's bill was just approved by the California state Assembly it will head next to the state Senate. For National Public Radio, I'm Nate Berg.

This weekend, Democratic Party leaders are meeting in Washington, D.C., to plan for their convention in Denver this fall. At the top of the list is what to do about the Michigan and Florida delegations. Those states broke rules by holding early primaries. David McDonald, an uncommitted superdelegate and Democratic National Committee Rules Committee member who will attend the meeting, talks with host Alex Chadwick.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: From the studios of NPR West, this is Day to Day. I'm Madeleine Brand.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: I'm Alex Chadwick. Coming up. Senator John McCain says Senator Barack Obama will change his mind on the war if he comes to Baghdad with Senator McCain. We'll hear more in our weekly chat with Juan Williams.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: First, sorting out the Democrats. Party leaders from across the country are gathering in Washington tomorrow for a meeting that can resolve the long battle for the presidential nomination. At stake, nearly 400 delegates from Michigan and Florida, two states that broke party rules by holding primaries ahead of schedule.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Senator Clinton won flawed victories in both contests, and now, what to do? The Democratic Party has a Rules Committee to sort out these disputes. A prominent Seattle attorney, David McDonald, is on it. He's also an undeclared superdelegate. David, we spoke by phone late yesterday. You said you'd just gotten to Washington, that you were learning a lot and that things are evolving. What can you tell us?</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Attorney, Democratic Superdelegate): They have not evolved very far as far as I can I tell you. It sounds like there is no clear consensus emerging anywhere at this point, and we'll be probably addressing this most of the day tomorrow.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: So, there will be a meeting, and there are no deals yet going into it.</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Attorney, Democratic Superdelegate): Not that I'm aware of.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Here's from the Huffington Post today from long-time political reporter Tom Edsel writing there, quote, "The major dispute over the Florida and Michigan delegations to the convention has now boiled down to Hillary Clinton's demand for full seeding with no sanctions." And he goes on, "the Clinton proposal now faces tough, if not insurmountable, odds." Is that how you read things?</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Attorney, Democratic Superdelegate): I think it's very unlikely that we would simply say never mind about Florida and Michigan.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: So what do you then say?</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Attorney, Democratic Superdelegate): I think the issue is whether we can lift part of the sanction in recognition of the fact that eventually these two state parties did actually try to get into compliance, and we may be able to lift part of the sanction on the basis of simply acknowledging that effort. I don't know whether that's going to work.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Here's something I've gleaned from looking around political websites today, this is from First Read at MSNBC. It says the most likely compromise would give Senator Clinton most of the Florida delegates but split Michigan 50-50. Have you heard about this compromise, and what is appealing about it?</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Attorney, Democratic Superdelegate): I don't think I've heard about it. What would be appealing about at least part of it is when all else fails, people tend to simply divide things. I don't mean to be flip, but putting aside all of the other rules and issues, the difficulty in states that did not hold a process that met the rules, is trying to estimate what would have happened if they had held a process, and that's part of the problem. If you decided you would do something, how would you select the people, and who would they be pledged to, and so on.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Well, what are you thinking about? What could you offer to this group of people tomorrow as a compromise, as a way out of this?</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Attorney, Democratic Superdelegate): Assuming that the two state parties actually did make good faith efforts to try to get themselves into compliance, I would consider lifting part of the sanction, and give them some delegates. I personally would probably prefer to do it with fractional votes in order to have more people come and see the convention, rather than have fewer people with full votes. I do not see giving full votes to the full delegation though.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: But what about that issue of where did those votes go? I mean that's really the crucial thing, isn't it?</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Attorney, Democratic Superdelegate): I still need to listen to arguments on that. It's a difficult issue because there's no data to base an answer on. I suppose one could say if there's no data, then just treat it as the average state, and see what the other 48 did on aggregate, but I don't know what that result would lead to.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: You're having lunch today with one of your law partners there in Washington.</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Attorney, Democratic Superdelegate): Yes.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: And you told me he's going to be talking about the same thing that everyone you talked to for the next 24 hours. How many meetings do you have scheduled today with other members of the Rules Committee, and what are you doing to get together, and try to figure out what to do?</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Attorney, Democratic Superdelegate): I don't have any meetings scheduled with other Rules Committee members. Most of them are in transit today. I believe we'll probably get together for dinner generally tonight, and it's possible some type of discussions would go on there. One-on-one is the way they normally do at dinner, but I'm not aware of any formal settings, and I don't have meetings set up myself until people land and I can get them by phone.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: You don't have a dozen people calling you up and say, David, how about, you know, cocktails later this afternoon?</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Attorney, Democratic Superdelegate): Well, I have all kinds of calls or emails of that kind, just not from Rules Committee members. And at the moment, they're the ones I need to talk to.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: David McDonald, one of 30 people meeting in Washington tomorrow, trying to resolve the key problem for now in determining who will win the Democratic presidential nomination. David McDonald, good luck.</s>Mr. DAVID MCDONALD (Attorney, Democratic Superdelegate): Thank you, Alex.

Some hospitals are auctioning patient debt to online collection agencies. Consumer advocates call this a harsh tactic that fails to address the real problem: rising healthcare costs and the lack of a national healthcare system.

ALEX CHADWICK, host: From NPR news it's Day to Day. Debt collection agencies may get more aggressive when they go after unpaid medical bills. The Wall Street Journal reports today some hospitals have started auctioning off their uncollected health care bills to the highest bidder. For an explanation of where we're going with this we turn to Marketplace's Bob Moon. Bob, what's the significance of this for people who maybe are behind in their medical bills? How would they notice a difference?</s>BOB MOON: Well on the surface this isn't much different from the way that debt collection agencies usually work, Alex. They buy the right to collect outstanding debts at a discount and they get a share of the take. The difference here is that some of these hospitals have started to auction off their debt on a couple of online websites that have been developed just for this purpose and that turns the debt collection firms into bidders. The hospital may get more money but the flip side of that is that buying a debt can become more expensive for the collectors and this arrangement has the collectors either buying the debt outright or providing a guarantee of payment to the hospitals for access to these unpaid bills. Well consumer groups this could end up meaning the debt collectors are going to have to be more aggressive in going after the person who owes this debt because the collectors are going to need to recoup their investment right up front.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Right. You know there are consumer advocates and also healthcare advocates, many of them. What do they say to this?</s>BOB MOON: Well for one thing, they say once the bills get turned over to the collector that separates the patient from a possible financial assistance policies and other options that the hospitals might offer. We spoke a short time ago to Mark Rukavina, he's the executive director of the Boston-based Access Project and advocacy group that's focused on medical debt.</s>Mr. MARK RUKAVINA (Executive Director, Access Project): Our advice to people who have medical bills that they're just struggling to pay is don't ignore them. Act promptly whether you get a letter from the provider or a letter from a collection agency. We've just seen time and time again that people who have been far more effective at working to resolve these bills and design repayment plans with providers than they have when the bills are held with other parties.</s>BOB MOON: Consumer advocates say that even if a third party is involved that doesn't stop you from contacting the medical provider directly to clarify exactly what you owe, for example.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: You know, Bob, you mentioned that other businesses are doing the same kind of thing. But other businesses aren't hospitals. Isn't there a kind of PR danger here - perception that they're cracking down on poor patients?</s>BOB MOON: Yeah, yeah, that does in fact does seem to be on their minds right now. Some of these hospitals say they're being very, very cautious here and testing the waters if you will, with these debt collection sites. And in some cases they're actually reserving the right to call these debts back from the collectors if they need to, especially if they deserve special consideration or the patient deserves special assistance, that sort of thing.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Thanks. Bob Moon of Public Radio's daily business show Marketplace. It's Day to Day from NPR news. I'm Alex Chadwick.

Democratic Party officials will convene in Washington, D.C., on Saturday to resolve the awkward matter of what to do about Michigan and Florida. Detroit-area voters discuss how they would like to see the Michigan delegate controversy resolved.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: So the action is in Washington tomorrow. In Michigan, voters will be closely following what happens. More than a few of them are just a little frustrated with the whole process. Celeste Headlee reports from Detroit.</s>CELESTE HEADLEE: As far as Michigan voters are concerned, there is a party at fault here, and it's the State Democratic Party.</s>Ms. LOTIS PAGE (Detroit Voter): I do believe the Michigan party made a horrible mistake.</s>Mr. JIM DANIELS (Detroit Voter): Let's face it. I mean it wasn't a consensus that it should have been moved up. So I think, you know, they sort of ruined the vote for Michigan.</s>Ms. ELLEN KIRKFOOT (Detroit Voter): It is their fault that they went ahead and just figured everyone would fall in place when we do what we want.</s>CELESTE HEADLEE: Lotis Page, Jim Daniels, and Ellen Kirkfoot (ph) all agree that moving the caucus up to January without the approval of the national party was a blunder. But Lorelei Kishley(ph) says it's the voters in the state that are ultimately suffering for it.</s>Ms. LORELEI KISHLEY (Detroit Voter): I think it would be a travesty not to permit Michigan to be seated at the delegation. What has really made me sad about the whole thing is that National Committee and the Michigan Committee started an ideological fight with each other, and the rest of us were all kind of left out of that.</s>CELESTE HEADLEE: The most frustrated voters are those who didn't support Clinton in the caucus, and felt like their choice was taken from them. Ellen Kirkfoot says she voted for McCain.</s>Ms. ELLEN KIRKFOOT (Detroit Voter): I would have voted for Obama if he had been on there, to be honest.</s>CELESTE HEADLEE: Jim Daniels is taking a break from his bike ride, leaning back on a shady park ridge.</s>Mr. JIM DANIELS (Detroit Voter): I wanted to vote for Obama, and he wasn't on the ballot.</s>CELESTE HEADLEE: So that's one idea. Give the undecided vote to Obama. Some say the vote was a fair one and the Democratic Party should let the results stand as they are with the delegates going to Clinton. But the majority of people I spoke to didn't offer any solution. Instead, they said...</s>Ms. MADDIE DUNLEY (Detroit Voter): We should let it go, honestly.</s>CELESTE HEADLEE: Maddie Dunley(ph) says Michigan and Florida should simply not be counted.</s>Ms. ELLEN KIRKFOOT (Detroit Voter): You know, we should follow the rules, and we didn't, so we have to serve the consequences.</s>Ms. MADDIE DUNLEY (Detroit Voter): I guess it would be better just to leave them out.</s>CELESTE HEADLEE: And that's perhaps the prevailing opinion in this unscientific poll. Ellen Kirkfoot says Michigan's democrats made a mistake, and it can't be fixed.</s>Ms. ELLEN KIRKFOOT (Detroit Voter): They screwed themselves, and all of us.</s>CELESTE HEADLEE: The issue will be settled once and for all this weekend, and voters in Michigan say they'll be happy to forget the whole thing, and move on to the general election in November. For NPR News, I'm Celeste Headlee.

How do you raise awareness about plastic debris floating in the Pacific? You sail a boat made out of 15,000 plastic bottles from California to Hawaii. Marine scientists Joel Paschal and Marcus Erikson discuss their voyage with host Madeleine Brand.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: Back now with Day to Day. Somewhere off the coast of California, two men are sailing to Hawaii on a boat made of plastic bottles.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Plastic bottles?</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Not only plastic bottles, but recycled old plastic bottles, 15,000 of them. Marine scientists Joel Paschal and Marcus Erikson, they built a boat, really it's kind of like a raft, entirely out of these plastic bottles and other junk. The purpose of their voyage is to call attention of the growing mass of plastic that's polluting the oceans. I went out to meet them at the Long Beach Harbor just before they set sail on a voyage that will take at least six weeks.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Are you good friends?</s>Mr. JOEL PASCHAL (Marine Scientist): We will be.</s>Mr. JOEL PASCHAL (Marine Scientist): We were hoping to rebuild the friendship.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: These two scientists say in their marine work they witnessed a huge floating mass of plastic that collects in a sort of eddy in the Pacific. Here's Marcus Erikson.</s>Dr. MARCUS ERIKSON (Marine Scientist): The vortex is called the North Pacific gyre. It extends from 500 miles off the coast of California to 200 miles off the coast of Japan. It's actually entire North Pacific Ocean is a swirling mass of water called a gyre, and it's full of plastic from end to end.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Where does it come from, this plastic?</s>Dr. MARCUS ERIKSON (Marine Scientist): Eighty percent comes from land. Twenty percent comes from the fishing industry, maritime industry. Most of it's from us. We have very quick, in the last two decades, become a throwaway society. Plastic bags, plastic bottles, bottle caps, cups and straws, coffee cup lids. All this junk that didn't exist really 25 years ago is now commonplace everywhere. And the idea you throw something away, well, where is away? There is no away. And we're finding it in the middle of the ocean.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Marcus and Joel were so shocked, well, disgusted really by the sight of all this plastic, they decided to pull off a kind of stunt, something that would bring attention to the problem. And so they built this raft from junk, they even named this raft "Junk." Floating on plastic bottles, the base of the raft is made of old sailing masts, they're lashed together. And the cabin, it's a fuselage from an old Cessna prop plane.</s>Dr. MARCUS ERIKSON (Marine Scientist): So you have the airplane sitting on top of sail boat masts sitting on top of 15,000 plastic bottles held together with old fishing nets.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: The raft is maybe 12 feet wide, 20 feet long. It doesn't look all that seaworthy, but Marcus' partner Joel assures me it is.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: You're hoping to stop the addition of more plastic into the ocean right, because...</s>Mr. JOEL PASCHAL (Marine Scientist): It's the only fix I can see right now.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: You can't do anything about the plastic that's already there?</s>Mr. JOEL PASCHAL (Marine Scientist): We get lot's of people call every day that are really eager to come up with some technological fix, to take a bunch of huge boats up there and seine out the whole ocean. Of course, you'd scoop up all the life in it in the process and burn up all the rest of the oil left on earth doing a lawnmower pattern across the whole Pacific Ocean. It's not practical. People really want - people really crave this technological fix and really it's a behavioral fix. When Paul is here, a legislative fix. So, we just have to stop using plastic the way we do right now. It takes we think about five years for plastic trash that's floating in this harbor here to work it's way out to the middle of the Pacific gyre. So there's still a large amount of momentum in this system. If we stopped right now, it's going to increase over the next five years.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Joel Paschal along with Marcus Erikson. They're sailing a plastic bottle raft to Hawaii, and they hope to reach Oahu some time in mid July.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Madeleine, did you actually get on this boat?</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: I did and there were these pretty large gaps in between the various lashed together sailing masts and bottles and I thought gosh, you know at night, one false step, you're in trouble.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Well, let's call them when they get to Hawaii.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Boy, I hope they get there safely.

A mud volcano on the Indonesian island of Java is collapsing, swallowing up more than 30,000 homes so far. Scientists blame a gas company for causing the eruption of sludge two years ago. Geologist Richard Davies explains the volcano's collapse with Alex Chadwick.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: This is Day to Day. I'm Madeleine Brand.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: And I'm Alex Chadwick. Lucy is now two years old. An occasion absolutely no one is celebrating. Lucy is a mud volcano on the island of Java, the most populous island in Indonesia. It's on the eastern tip of the island. It's already swallowed the homes of more than 30,000 people. Scientists and displaced Indonesians blame a gas company for causing the eruption of sludge two years ago. Richard Davies is a geologist with Durham University in England. He's been tracking this volcano since it first appeared. Richard Davies, what usually causes a mud volcano? And how is this one different?</s>Professor RICHARD DAVIES (Geologist, Durham University): They are normally caused by natural processes. Under the ground you have something called geological pressure and this pressure, sometimes, can be abnormally high. And so where it reaches abnormally high levels, it can force fluids to the surface. Normally through natural fractures and breaks in the rocks. There are thousands of mud volcanoes on the earth. What makes this mud volcano very different is that this one was almost certainly triggered by drilling a gas exploration well.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: This gas well was being drilled by a company that belongs to the richest man in Indonesia. He's connected to the government. There's a lot of back and forth on this. A local court has said that it thinks it was a natural disaster.</s>Professor RICHARD DAVIES (Geologist, Durham University): Well, yeah, there was an earthquake on the 27th of May, two days before the start of the mud volcano on the 29th of May, 2006. Almost exactly two years ago. This earthquake has been looked at, in detail, by an American scientist, Michael Magner and he decided that the earthquake is too small and too far away to have had any influence on the triggering this mud volcano. My part in the research has been to look at the drilling data and in fact we have very clear indications that while they were drilling the well, they basically had a series of operational events, which led to the subsurface blowout. Which means that the fluid within the well leaked out towards the surface and that kicked off the process in which Lucy was born.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Well, this is the world's largest mud volcano. Now, how much bigger might it get? And is there anything that can be done to plug the thing up?</s>Professor RICHARD DAVIES (Geologist, Durham University): It's not actually the largest. The largest are out in Azerbaijan, but those mud volcanoes are formed over tens of thousands - possibly millions of years. It is the fastest growing. So it's an incredible fast growing mud volcano that is in its infancy. It's expanded to about seven square kilometers and it's actually being penned in by series of dams, which have been built, in order to stop the impact on the local population.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: You've been to the sight. You've looked at this mud volcano?</s>Professor RICHARD DAVIES (Geologist, Durham University): Yes.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: From the press accounts I read, it's - well it doesn't smell very good?</s>Professor RICHARD DAVIES (Geologist, Durham University): Well, initially, one of the problems was the gas that erupted with the volcano had hydrogen sulfide gas in it, which is - has a smell of rotten eggs. It's a sight to behold, I mean, reading through the various literature and looking at pictures does not prepare you for seeing this thing. It has a crater in the middle of it, a vent, which is 50 meters wide with mud and gas and steam coming out of it.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Is the land in danger of collapsing if this water runs out? I mean what is going to happen there? Geologically?</s>Professor RICHARD DAVIES (Geologist, Durham University): It is collapsing and so we've recently published a paper - we're working with Indonesians. They have taken accurate GPS measurements, which can measure a fraction of a centimeter of downward movement. And they have also used satellite images to see whether the land has gone up or gone down. It is of course going down. The weight of the mud, and because you are taking mud and fluid from underneath the ground, is causing the area to subside. The maximum rate, if you like, are four centimeters a day. That equates to something like 14 meters a year and if you multiply it by ten years, you can quickly extrapolate the worst-case scenario. And so my point is you really have to look at this new data because it shows that the area will eventually be impacted by the mud volcano, it's not just the area covered by mud.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Richard Davies, professor of Geology at Durham University in the United Kingdom on the great mud volcano, Lucy, on the island of Java in Indonesia. Richard Davies, thank you.</s>Professor RICHARD DAVIES (Geologist, Durham University): Thank you very much.

Wachovia Corp. said Monday it is ousting Chief Executive Officer Ken Thompson. The fourth largest U.S. bank is reeling from an ill-fated purchase of a big mortgage lender, and it faces legal and regulatory troubles.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: From NPR News this is Day to Day. The mortgage crisis has caused another top banking executive to lose his job. Ken Thompson is out as head of Wachovia Corporation. It's the nation's fourth largest bank. Marketplace's Janet Babin is here. And first, Janet, most people have probably never have heard the name Ken Thompson or who he is? Why is his departure so important?</s>JANET BABIN: Well, Madeleine, I'd say that they probably have heard the name Wachovia and if you are a shareholder, and you've seen stocks in freefall at Wachovia. Or if you've got an account or a mortgage through this bank, you're going to want this bank to stay strong. And more importantly, though, you know when the fourth largest bank in the nation - the CEO goes under, many see it as a commentary on the global credit crises in the state of U.S. banks.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So is that why he was forced out?</s>JANET BABIN: Well, you know Wachovia said in a conference call to reporters that it wasn't just one single event, but a big part of it had to be that there were bad loans that Wachovia made that were tied to the purchase of this big mortgage lender. At the very worst time, just before the housing bubble popped, and Ken Thompson did oversee this purchase of this mortgage company, Golden West Financial, and that purchase has been a drag on earnings ever since.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Now, at leaders Citi Group and at Merrill Lynch also lost their jobs and all for the same reason? Because of the housing crises?</s>JANET BABIN: Yeah, and it certainly made banks more vulnerable. I mean residential real estate weighed down consumer credit is drying up. It's all tied to this housing crisis. And external pressures on banks are really high right now. But you know, just a few years ago these bank's CEOs might not have taken the heat. That according to Hugh Johnson, a Johnson Illington Advisors based in Albany, New York. Johnson told me today that increase Federal Regulations from the Sarbanes-Oxley Act, now hold a company's board legally accountable. So, boards have stopped sort of rubberstamping whatever CEOs do. And Johnson said that Ken Thompson may not be to blame for all of the things going on at Wachovia. Obviously we talked about that global credit crisis, but the board is pinning this trouble on him.</s>Mr. HUGH JOHNSON (Chairman and CIO, Johnson Illington Advisors): These are events that are well beyond the control of Ken Thompson. At the same time, you know, directors are insisting on results, even though it is very difficult to get those results.</s>JANET BABIN: And also today, Madeleine, another savings and loan bank, Washington Mutual, announced that it's going to strip its chief executive of his chairman's role and that's how things started for Ken Thompson. He lost the chairman title of Wachovia just last month.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So, what about Wachovia? Who's taking over?</s>JANET BABIN: Well the board named Lanty Smith chairman last month and now Smith is going to serve as the interim CEO and the company is going to look as both internal and external candidates. And just in case you are curious, Thompson won't leave empty handed. He's going to get a severance package of 1.45 million dollars plus some stock.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Thanks Janet. Janet Babin of Public Radio's daily business show, Marketplace.

Is it better to pay off your car or to put that money into savings? What about student loans? Madeleine Brand gets advice from personal finance contributor Michelle Singletary.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: Average college graduates this spring will have about 20,000 dollars of debt. Should they begin saving for retirement or pay down that debt? What about that governments stimulus check you may have already received? Should you use it to pay off debt? Should you use it to pay off your car loan or save that money? Here to discuss your options for paying debt is Day to Day's personal finance contributor, Michelle Singletary. Hi, Michelle.</s>MICHELLE SINGLETARY: Hi.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: OK. This is your age-old dilemma, one that maybe you've talked about a few times on this show. You're in debt, should you pay off the debt first and then save, or save first and then pay off the debt?</s>MICHELLE SINGLETARY: The answer is both and it's interesting. We could talk about this every single week and people still don't get this, because so many people are in debt and they're so overwhelmed they don't know what to do. But here's the thing. You got to do both, you've got to save and you have to pay down debt. And when I say save I mean save for an emergency, save for your retirement. If you got kids eventually going to college, save for their college fund, but you've also got to pay down the debt.</s>MICHELLE SINGLETARY: So if you've got a little bit of money divide it by how many pots you need to. Put a little bit toward savings and some to debt because the thing is if you only throw it at the debt, if something happens and something always happens, you'll end up going into more debt to cover that expense. So say your car breaks down, you have no savings and you're trying to pay down a credit card debt, well what are you going to do? You're going to use that credit card. So you need to put something aside for the things in life that happen.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: OK. So you are a fresh out of college graduate. You get 1200 dollars let's say in gift money for your graduation and you have zero saving. What do you do?</s>MICHELLE SINGLETARY: You've got to save that money. Don't go buying any clothes. Don't, you know, don't go out dinner with the other graduates. Put that money away. You're going to need - any of us who've ever had our first job understand what it's like to really be out there without help from mom and dad, without the cover of college. So you want to build at least a three-month living expenses. Everything, rent, cable, car payment, especially those cell phone bills, you want to add all those up, multiply times three. That's how much you need to have in an emergency fund, so you need every penny of that money.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: OK. So let's say you've done that, you have your three months emergency supply. Should you then use money to pay down a debt or student loans?</s>MICHELLE SINGLETARY: Well you're not done saving for emergency just yet. I have talked to people about this and I've figured out listen, you need an emergency fund and something else I call a "life happens fund." That's for the car repairs, dental work - you know all the little things that you need to take care of. So you want to have three to six months living emergency fund and about 500 to 1000 dollars in the life happens fund to tide you over for those unplanned expenses.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: OK. So after you've done all that and you are a fresh new graduate. You also have student loans, you also have a car loan. Which one should you pay off first?</s>MICHELLE SINGLETARY: I would look at the terms for both and the interest rate. If both the car loan and the student loan debt are about the same interest rate which it could be these days, I would go after the car loan first, because if you're under a certain income threshold you can deduct some of that interest that you pay on the student loan debt. If you are above that threshold which many college graduates wouldn't, I'd probably go after the student loan debt. But overall just have a plan. If you've got an extra 200 dollars a month, throw 100 at both to pay it down. And for those new graduates out there and those parents with the student loan debt, don't keep this debt around like it's a pet. So definitely get rid of that student loan debt as fast as you can.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Personal finance expert, Michelle Singletary, writes The Color of Money column for The Washington Post. Michelle, thank you.</s>MICHELLE SINGLETARY: You're welcome.

The Senate takes up a massive bill that aims to cut greenhouse gas emissions by about two-thirds by 2050, but the bill has little chance of passage. Jeffrey Ball of The Wall Street Journal talks with host Madeleine Brand about the bill's backers and opponents.

ALEX CHADWICK, host: This is Day to Day. I'm Alex Chadwick.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: And I'm Madeleine Brand. Most people agree that something must be done about global warming. Today, the Senate takes up a massive bill that would cut greenhouse gas emissions by about two-thirds by the year 2050. The Climate Security Act has bipartisan support and support from industry as well as some major environmental groups. However, this bill has virtually no chance of passing. And to find out why, we called up Wall Street Journal reporter Jeff Ball. Jeff, first tell us broadly what's in this bill.</s>Mr. JEFFREY BALL (Reporter, Wall Street Journal): Well, what's in this bill is something that affects essentially everyone in the economy from every industry in the economy to regular consumers. Broadly what this does is put a cap on emissions of global warming gasses, notably carbon dioxide which is produced whenever a fossil fuel like oil or coal is burned. So fundamentally what this bill does is create higher prices to consume the sort of energy that powers everything in this economy. And as a result of that what you have is a huge food fight in Washington over the details of this, which are really going to determine who gets hit the hardest.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: And who's for it and who's against it?</s>Mr. JEFFREY BALL (Reporter, Wall Street Journal): Well, one thing is that this fight is often described as a partisan fight with Democrats versus Republicans. And really it's not that. It's really a regional fight. Energy politics and environmental politics in this country, like around the world, are mostly regional. Where people are in the Congress, just like out in the country, depends on what kind of fuel they use for electricity largely. So coal-state Senators, whether Democrat or Republican are likely to be at a different place in this debate than Senators say from the North-East and California who get most of their electricity from natural gas or nuclear energy, which is less emitting than coal.</s>Mr. JEFFREY BALL (Reporter, Wall Street Journal): And the other thing is that there are very different positions even within industries. You have interesting splits, say, between the auto industry on the one hand and the oil industry on the other hand. There's a very broad group called the US Climate Action Partnership, which is based in Washington. And interestingly, represents companies sort of across the industrial spectrum. I mean, among its members are General Electric and General Motors, both of whom make equipment that is used in activities that produce quite a lot of emissions. And you might not expect them to support this bill, but they do, and basically the reason is that they figure that like it or not, they're going to get hit with a climate bill, and they better be involved early on in shaping it so that they can shape it to their advantage.</s>Mr. JEFFREY BALL (Reporter, Wall Street Journal): The other thing is that if you look at this bill itself, you see this fascinating sort of matrix of slicing the pie. So this bill actually names a broad group of constituencies and parses out how much of these pollution permits that the bill would create would be divvied up among these various constituencies. And this is a big, big economic issue, because these permits are expected to be worth something like perhaps 25 dollars apiece.</s>Mr. JEFFREY BALL (Reporter, Wall Street Journal): These are permits, each of which allows its bearer to emit one ton of carbon dioxide, if this bill is passed, when it takes effect. And each of these things, if it's worth 25 dollars apiece, will collectively be worth more than 100 billion dollars in the first year of this bill. And so to the degree that any constituency gets these things, it can either use them to lessen its cost of compliance, or it can actually sell them on the market and make money.</s>Mr. JEFFREY BALL (Reporter, Wall Street Journal): And so this is largely seen as an environmental bill, but fundamentally this is sort of like a tax bill. It's an economic bill with huge stakes and essentially everyone who uses energy in this economy is at the federal bar trying to maximize his take.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: And this is why the group Friends of the Earth is opposed to it, because they see it as a big giveaway to polluters.</s>Mr. JEFFREY BALL (Reporter, Wall Street Journal): Well, right. I mean, lots of - groups who are opposed to this on the environmental side think that it's too soft. One big debate is whether the quote unquote "big polluters" ought to be given a chunk of their pollution permits or whether they ought to have to pay for all of them. There was a big fight in Europe, which created a system like this a couple of years ago, where there was a sense that large emitting companies got windfall profits. That is they were given permits for free and still electricity prices rose and their profits rose as well. There were investigations into that, and that hangs as a specter over this whole discussion in the US.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So this is supported by, or sponsored by Republican John Warner of Virginia and former Democrat, now independent Joe Lieberman of Connecticut. So these two are veterans of the Senate. You would think that they could bring along enough Senators with them. Why can't they?</s>Mr. JEFFREY BALL (Reporter, Wall Street Journal): Well, remember two things about where we are on June 2nd, 2008. We are facing four dollar a gallon gasoline at the pump, and we're five months away from a presidential election. Both of those things ultimately argue against passing a climate bill, and here's why. First of all, again everyone agrees that on some level passing a climate cap bill is going to increase energy prices, including ultimately increasing gasoline prices at some level. Now there are many studies that say it won't be too much. Studies disagree on this, but nevertheless it's not a message that a politician wants to deliver to a consumer today.</s>Mr. JEFFREY BALL (Reporter, Wall Street Journal): Secondly, they particularly don't want to deliver that message as the presidential election heats up. And it's interesting that all three leading presidential candidates apparently will not be in the Senate today for this debate. Now they all say that they have reasons not to be there, but it is sort of interesting to note because at some level this climate bill has been a subject of discussion on the campaign trail.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Yeah, I mean, interestingly, John McCain has recently said that he says global warming is real and something needs to be done about it.</s>Mr. JEFFREY BALL (Reporter, Wall Street Journal): Right. And they all essentially say that, but then when you parse the details, they're all very careful and they've become increasingly careful in recent weeks not to say that anything should be done at all costs. I mean, I think most of them say that things should be done such that it doesn't kill the economy. And that's a big caveat, which leaves a lot open to interpretation. Because look, at the end of the day, in order to win the presidency, any of these candidates is going to need support from states that depend heavily on fossil fuels. I mean, notably coal states.</s>Mr. JEFFREY BALL (Reporter, Wall Street Journal): And it's pretty clear that depending on how this thing shakes out, coal states are going to get hit harder than other states. There are provisions in this bill that would seek to address that, to sort of parse out some more largesse as compensation to coal states. But, you know, this debate largely has been had in this country so far in a very esoteric, general 30,000-foot level. And I think what we're about to see is this debate get had on a more detailed level. And when that happens people are going to start to realize that there's not a free lunch here. And that's not going to be a politically popular realization, probably.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So you expect it not to pass this week, but perhaps after November it might be revived.</s>Mr. JEFFREY BALL (Reporter, Wall Street Journal): Yeah, I think the consensus is that - well, consensus broadly is that it won't pass this year, and it'll be taken up again probably next year and maybe it'll pass next year, maybe the year after that.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: We've been talking about the big global warming bill debated this week in the Senate with Jeff Ball. He's a reporter for the Wall Street Journal. Jeff, thank you.</s>Mr. JEFFREY BALL (Reporter, Wall Street Journal): Sure, thank you.

Every year we're inundated by montages of important people giving commencement addresses. Do you recall remember who your commencement speakers were or what they said? We went to the Westwood area of Los Angeles and looked for answers.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: Be flexible.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: Be prepared.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Say goodbye.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: In the spring of the year when college grads go off to work or maybe one more summer off, they receive a lot of advice. The centerpiece of course, the commencement address.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: We wondered if people actually remember that advice that they received, five, 10 or 25 years after they graduate, or even if they remember who the speaker was.</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: So producer Ki-Min Sung went to the Westwood area of Los Angeles to find out.</s>KI-MIN SUNG: Do you remember who your graduation speaker was?</s>KI-MIN SUNG: Unidentified Man #1: Yeah, the speaker of my graduation was, I don't recall the name.</s>KI-MIN SUNG: Unidentified Man #2: Yeah. A. Whitney Griswold His advice I remember too, because I thought it was so trite. He said what we need is a dynamic approach to broad general principals.</s>KI-MIN SUNG: Unidentified Man #3: Walter Cronkite college.</s>KI-MIN SUNG: What did he say?</s>KI-MIN SUNG: Unidentified Man #3: It was hard to tell because it was in a football stadium that held probably about 60, 70,000 people. And it was about 90 degrees.</s>KI-MIN SUNG: Unidentified Woman #1: I don't remember his name but he was head of I.B.M.</s>KI-MIN SUNG: What do you remember about the speech?</s>KI-MIN SUNG: Unidentified Woman #1: It was mostly about going for your dreams, and he was relating it to doves, somehow.</s>KI-MIN SUNG: Unidentified Man #4: I remember him using all these baseball metaphors about the excellence of students at Brown. It was like baseball and we virtuous and we were excellent.</s>KI-MIN SUNG: Unidentified Man #5: The last degrees I got were like a combined B.S. and M.D. at New York University Medical School, in 1947.</s>KI-MIN SUNG: And do you remember who your graduation speaker was in 1947?</s>KI-MIN SUNG: Unidentified Man #5: Should I be expected to?</s>KI-MIN SUNG: Unidentified Man #5: No, as a matter of fact I skipped town before the graduation ceremony. You know, it wasn't that important to me that I felt I wanted to stick around and have some old man or lady tell us what life's supposed to be about. OK?</s>ALEX CHADWICK, host: The stately grace of Day to Day. A production of NPR News with contributions from Slate.com. I'm Alex Chadwick.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: And I'm Madeleine Brand.

Pregnant women aren't supposed to take certain medications. A new study looks at the risks of psychiatric medications on fetuses. Yale Medical School professor and medical contributor Dr. Sydney Spiesel speaks with host Madeleine Brand.

MADELEINE BRAND, host: Every year, half a million American women with some form of mental illness will become pregnant. Should they or should they not take psychiatric medication? Some people are afraid that could hurt the fetus. A recent study looked at the risks and offered some recommendations, and Dr. Sydney Spiesel is here now to share the results of that study. He's a Yale Medical School professor, a pediatrician, and a regular on this program. Welcome back, Syd.</s>Dr. SYDNEY SPIESEL (Professor, Yale Medical School): Thank you, Madeleine, always nice to be here.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Well, first of all, tell us the risks that this medication, some of the medication, could pose to developing fetuses.</s>Dr. SYDNEY SPIESEL (Professor, Yale Medical School): There are risks that we know and risks that we don't know, and I want to make that distinction here. The risks that we know - the known ones are usually physical risks. For example, we know that if women take Lithium or Paxil, that there's a small increase in risk for the developing fetus of heart abnormalities. There are some drugs that are called mood stabilizers that are used often for bipolar disorder, also used to treat seizures, drugs like Depakote and Tegretol. And again, they're associated with a small risk of physical malformations, and those are the things that we're most aware of.</s>Dr. SYDNEY SPIESEL (Professor, Yale Medical School): But you know, there are some worries that there may be unknown risks that we simply don't know, although we've been looking for them. For example, the possibility that these medications might cause subtle neurological or behavioral consequences later on. And then there's still more unknowable things - what about the possibility, as we're beginning to understand, that there might be individual genetic differences, which might make only one or rare developing fetus especially susceptible to risk.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: And I suppose the risks of not taking these drugs are acute for women who suffer from depression.</s>Dr. SYDNEY SPIESEL (Professor, Yale Medical School): Oh, they're very acute indeed. You know, the problem is that if women who need these medications are off their medications, some are not going to be able to comply well with prenatal care. Perhaps they're more likely to drink, to smoke, to use other drugs, that I think for many of them, often is a kind of self-medication. And these could be much more harmful. Smoking, drinking, using other drugs could be much more harmful than the medications.</s>Dr. SYDNEY SPIESEL (Professor, Yale Medical School): If an illness is untreated and it gets worse and worse, then after the baby's born, the mother might not be in a psychological condition to be able to fully attach emotionally to the baby, or might not be adequately attentive to the baby, or give unfocused care. Or in fact, if she has a very serious thought disorder, she might do completely irrational things.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: So, Syd, this, I guess, collection of recommendations is put out by the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, and what do they say, what do they recommend?</s>Dr. SYDNEY SPIESEL (Professor, Yale Medical School): Well, the most important thing is that adequate care for the mother often best serves the needs of the fetus. If the mother's illness is severe, you sometimes need to use somewhat risky medications if other choices aren't available or if they're ineffective. It's best to use a single medication even at a higher dose rather than a collection of meds. It's always important to keep in mind that the most risky time for developing embryo fetus is the third to eighth week of gestation. And they urge team management: obstetricians, psychiatrists, pediatricians, the mother's primary care provider.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: Thank you, Syd.</s>Dr. SYDNEY SPIESEL (Professor, Yale Medical School): Thank you.</s>MADELEINE BRAND, host: That's Dr. Sydney Spiesel. He teaches at the Yale Medical School, and you can read his medical examiner column at slate.com.

Governments all over the world use bonds to raise money. We examine how the the first bond came to be, and how it transformed the way governments borrow money.

STEVE INSKEEP, HOST: The federal government raised more than a trillion dollars last year with government bonds. A bond is the way the government borrows money. They sell you a bond and promise to pay you back later. During this time of enormous federal borrowing at levels that are unusual during good times, we have the backstory of bonds. Their invention was less about financial innovation and more about appeasing a mob. Here's NPR's Stacey Vanek Smith of the Planet Money Indicator podcast.</s>STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: Government bonds work like this. You buy, let's say, a hundred dollars' worth of 30-year Treasury bonds. The government takes that hundred bucks and uses it to help pave a highway or contribute to someone's unemployment check or mow the White House lawn. And in exchange, you get a regular payout every year until the 30 years is up. At the current rate, you get about three bucks a year. And 30 years later, you would also get your hundred dollars back, so 190 bucks in total. It's a pretty slick system. And it all traces back to 12th-century Venice. At the time, Venice was one of the most important and powerful cities in the world, a center for innovation, culture and global trade. But Constantinople, another Middle Ages powerhouse, decided to make a move on Venice. Venice had to respond.</s>WILLIAM GOETZMANN: The government of Venice needed to build a fleet of ships in kind of a hurry.</s>STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: William Goetzmann is the author of "Money Changes Everything."</s>WILLIAM GOETZMANN: So it basically taxed all the people in Venice.</s>STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: This emergency tax Venice levied was not your typical tax. The government said it would pay people back for this tax. And the idea was that the Venetian fleet would sail over to Constantinople, crush the enemies, sail home triumphantly with a bunch of booty and pay everybody back.</s>WILLIAM GOETZMANN: It was a complete disaster.</s>STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: The Venetian fleet got hit with the plague. Thousands of people died, and the surviving Venetians came home in defeat.</s>WILLIAM GOETZMANN: The doge, the head of Venice, had gone out on this expedition. He did come back. And when the Venetian people saw that he survived, they chased him down the street and executed him.</s>STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: Oh. Venice's governing council was like, uh oh. They did not have the money to pay back the tax loan. And the mob was not in a mood to be told no, so they came up with a plan.</s>WILLIAM GOETZMANN: They said, well, we're going to pay you every year something like 6 percent until we can pay you back.</s>STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: The bond was born - or the prestiti, actually. That is what they were called - prestiti. People loved them as a safe investment. And governments loved them because they could raise money for big, ambitious, risky projects.</s>WILLIAM GOETZMANN: It meant that, in some sense, cities could punch above their weight.</s>STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: Spain used bonds to help fund shipping expeditions to South America. Holland used bonds to build dikes. Bonds helped western European economies grow at the speed they did and to the scale they did. In fact, says William, China, which had been leaps and bounds ahead of Europe in terms of wealth and technology, started to fall behind, partly because of the money raised through government bonds.</s>WILLIAM GOETZMANN: The Chinese did not have this financing technology. They didn't issue bonds. So Europe takes off compared to China.</s>STACEY VANEK SMITH, BYLINE: Of course, bonds had their fair share of problems, too. I mean, they make it really easy for governments to take on a lot of debt. During the financial crisis, countries like Portugal, Greece, Spain and, ironically enough, Italy took on way too much debt and got their economies into a lot of trouble. Even still, bond sales continue to be a crucial way for governments to fund their operations. And it was all thanks to this innovation from Venice in the 1100s. Stacey Vanek Smith, NPR News.