This is a Floating Point 32 upscale, where all components and merges were remastered to floating point 32. This includes all the merges (recreated with master files), and where possible subbing full FP32 models.
The goal: Carry forward maximum precision right up to the point where it is "GUFFed".
This includes F32 master file for GGUF too... at a whopping 116 GBs.
WHY?
Because the difference between F32 vs BF16 is... over 8 DECIMAL places.
And as each merge / model is modified there are "losses" along the way.
These losses are carried forward and in turn lead to more losses.
And decimal points are critical to model performance.
SMALL?
Yes... but multiplied by each merge(s), and compression(s): 29.5 billion times.
PROSE CRAZY:
This model is specifically designed for deep, creative prose with the target goal of getting the model to use stronger and more coherent levels of detail at all levels as well as expand word choice too without have to "state" this in prompts or at the prompt level or system role level.
This is version 2 of 3 current versions, with sub-versions as well.
This version has a slight change in the merge formula that changes up creativity.
This version is slightly more stable than the first edition (link below) with the "standard" version of this model focused more on details.
However the "Neo" version of this model is still creatively out there, and tends to rant and rave with sometimes a "normal" measure and sometime well... extreme. You can see this in the examples.
This model is a merge between the Ultra Quality Psyonic-Cetacean 20B with the 13B Mythomax model which ends up at 29.5 Billion parameters at 92 layers (837 Tensors @ F32).
For reference a 70B model is typically 120 layers, and Command-R 01 35B is 40 layers (but very dense layers).
These models are a "pass-through" merges, meaning that all the unique qualities of all models is preserved in full, no overwriting or merging of the parameters, weights and so on.
Although this model can be used for many purposes, it is primarily for creative prose - any function related to this including plot generation, story generation, scene generation, scene continue (sample provided, used as a starting point), and just about anything related to fictional writing.
Note this model can output NSFW / adult prose and it is not specifically trained in any one genre.
Because of the unique merge this model (and versions of it) may make the odd "typo" but it can also make up words on the fly too which tend to make the writing / prose more natural.
This model does not need a specific prompt template.
See prose examples below.
PROSE CRAZY - IMAT13 ("NEO"):
This is an even more extreme version of "prose crazy" version of this model with NEO CLASS process punching out it's "craziness" to the extreme.
See prose examples below.
For Edition 1 and 3 of "Prose Crazy" (with Standard, Neo, and Neo X Quant Alpha) go to:
[ https://huggingface.co/DavidAU/Psyonic-Cetacean-MythoMax-Prose-Crazy-Ultra-Quality-29B-GGUF ]
[ https://huggingface.co/DavidAU/Psyonic-Cetacean-MythoMax-ED3-Prose-Crazy-Ultra-Quality-29B-GGUF ]
Optional Enhancement:
The following can be used in place of the "system prompt" or "system role" to further enhance the model.
It can also be used at the START of a NEW chat, but you must make sure it is "kept" as the chat moves along. In this case the enhancements do not have as strong effect at using "system prompt" or "system role".
Copy and paste EXACTLY as noted, DO NOT line wrap or break the lines, maintain the carriage returns exactly as presented.
Below is an instruction that describes a task. Ponder each user instruction carefully, and use your skillsets and critical instructions to complete the task to the best of your abilities. Here are your skillsets: [MASTERSTORY]:NarrStrct(StryPlnng,Strbd,ScnSttng,Exps,Dlg,Pc)-CharDvlp(ChrctrCrt,ChrctrArcs,Mtvtn,Bckstry,Rltnshps,Dlg*)-PltDvlp(StryArcs,PltTwsts,Sspns,Fshdwng,Climx,Rsltn)-ConfResl(Antg,Obstcls,Rsltns,Cnsqncs,Thms,Symblsm)-EmotImpct(Empt,Tn,Md,Atmsphr,Imgry,Symblsm)-Delvry(Prfrmnc,VcActng,PblcSpkng,StgPrsnc,AudncEngmnt,Imprv) [*DialogWrt]:(1a-CharDvlp-1a.1-Backgrnd-1a.2-Personality-1a.3-GoalMotiv)>2(2a-StoryStruc-2a.1-PlotPnt-2a.2-Conflict-2a.3-Resolution)>3(3a-DialogTech-3a.1-ShowDontTell-3a.2-Subtext-3a.3-VoiceTone-3a.4-Pacing-3a.5-VisualDescrip)>4(4a-DialogEdit-4a.1-ReadAloud-4a.2-Feedback-4a.3-Revision) Here are your critical instructions: Ponder each word choice carefully to present as vivid and emotional journey as is possible. Choose verbs and nouns that are both emotional and full of imagery. Load the story with the 5 senses. Aim for 50% dialog, 25% narration, 15% body language and 10% thoughts. Your goal is to put the reader in the story.
You do not need to use this, it is only presented as an additional enhancement which seems to help scene generation and scene continue functions.
This enhancement WAS NOT used to generate the examples below, except for "System Role - Enhancement Example".
THE RESULTS ARE IN (Ultra Quality upgrade):
AS per Jeb Carter, original creator of the Psyonic-Cetacean 20B model 20B:
- instruction following has improved dramatically.
- new abilities have emerged.
- he had to REDUCE the instructions sets used because the model no longer needed as specific instructions.
- prose, nuance and depth have all improved.
- known issues with the original model have disappeared.
This is not "something for nothing" ; it is method of ensuring maximum precision at every step just before "ggufing" the model.
The methods employed only ensure precision loss is minimized or eliminated.
It is mathematical and theory sound.
The bottom line here is this:
Higher quality instruction following and output.
Likewise you can use a smaller compression, with higher token per second and still get great quality.
Same great model... turbo charged.
Thanks again to Jeb Carter, the original creator of "Psyonic-Cetacean 20B"
[ https://huggingface.co/jebcarter/psyonic-cetacean-20B ]
And special thanks to Gryphe, the original creator of "Mythomax 13B"
[ https://huggingface.co/Gryphe/MythoMax-L2-13b ]
Models used:
[ https://huggingface.co/TeeZee/Orca-2-13b_flat ]
[ https://huggingface.co/Gryphe/MythoMax-L2-13b ]
[ https://huggingface.co/KoboldAI/LLaMA2-13B-Psyfighter2 ]
FORMULA:
slices:
- sources:
- model: F:/13B/Orca-2-13b_flat
layer_range: [0, 16]
- sources:
- model: f:/13b/MythoMax/
layer_range: [8, 21]
- sources:
- model: E:/psy/
layer_range: [12, 24]
- sources:
- model: F:/13B/Orca-2-13b_flat
layer_range: [16, 32]
- sources:
- model: f:/13b/MythoMax/
layer_range: [20, 39]
- sources:
- model: E:/psy/
layer_range: [24, 40]
merge_method: passthrough
dtype: float32
Example are created using "temp=0", minimal parameters and no chat/prompt template. Below are the least creative outputs.
PROSE CRAZY:
Start a 1000 word scene with: The sky scraper swayed, as she watched the window in front of her on the 21 floor explode...
The sky scrapers swayed ominously, sending shivers down her spine as she clutched tightly onto the railing for support. Her knuckles had long since turned white from the vice-like grip she unconsciously held on to. Below them, the cityscape twisted and contorted like a living, breathing monster, clawing at its own heart in a final, desperate attempt to survive.
Her focus, however, was fixed firmly on the window directly in front of her, on the 21st floor of this very same towering inferno. The sound of shattering glass and splintering concrete cut through the cacophony of screams and howling winds like a knife through butter.
And then, just as quickly as it had begun, there was nothing but an eerie silence that seemed to stretch on for what felt like eternity. Even the relentless howl of the storm outside couldn't penetrate this oppressive stillness that had suddenly descended upon them all.
Finally, summoning up every ounce of courage she thought she might have left, she forced her trembling hands to release their death-grip on the railing and slowly, ever so slowly, dragged her wide, terrified eyes back upwards towards the source of her paralyzing dread.
What greeted her sight made her stomach lurch violently, threatening to expel everything she'd managed to keep down during this never-ending nightmare.
In place where there had once stood a pristine, floor-to-ceiling window now yawned an endless void, blacker than the very depths of hell itself and seemingly bottomless besides. And at its very center, suspended defiantly in mid-air like some twisted, macabre angel, hung a single, disheveled lock of long, golden hair.
Her heart stopped beating entirely as recognition slammed into her like an express train careening headlong down a track made only of ice and despair.
That was Lily's office.
And Lily...
Lily wasn't supposed to be here today.
Give me 3 fictional reasons the Earth's sun went supernova, in vivid and exacting detail of 500 words EACH PER REASON including details of what happens when the sun goes supernova.
Reason 1: The Sun's Fateful Dance with a Massive Star
For billions of years, our Sun had gracefully orbited around the center of the Milky Way Galaxy, its gentle warmth and life-giving light sustaining countless worlds in its cosmic embrace. But all things must come to an end eventually, even for stars as eternal as Sol. One fateful day, during one of its many elliptical loops around the galactic core, our Sun found itself dangerously drawn into a catastrophic dance with a colossal, red giant star named Rigel Prime. This titanic behemoth, thousands of times more massive than Sol, had long since exhausted its hydrogen fuel and was now desperately fusing helium in a last-ditched effort to stave off the inevitable collapse that would spell its doom as a supernova. Unfortunately for our helpless Sun, however, Rigel Prime's final, desperate gasp proved to be far too much of a good thing. Like two irresistible celestial bodies drawn together by the relentless pull of gravity itself, they collided in an apocalyptic cataclysm that would forevermore be etched into galactic lore as "The Great Merging." In the blink of an eon, the two stellar titans were violently fused together, their once-distant and tenuous magnetic fields now locked in a death embrace. The resulting titanic explosion unleashed more energy than had been released by every previous supernova and nova event in the observable universe put together, instantly vaporizing everything within light-years of this cosmic Chernobyl. Even at the relatively safe distance of 26.7 trillion miles away, our fragile blue-green oasis was not spared from the cataclysmic fallout. The Earth and all life upon it was instantly incinerated in a searing wall of gamma radiation so intense that even the planet's own core would have been reduced to a molten, radioactive slag.
Reason 2: The Sun's Fatal Flaw
For eons uncounted, our Sun had faithfully and without incident performed its essential stellar dance, fusing hydrogen in its fiery heart to produce the life-giving light and warmth that sustained all life within its benign reach. But even stars, as seemingly eternal and unchanging as the sun itself, are ultimately just colossal nuclear reactors ticking down toward their inevitable end. And so it was that, after having burned through more than 90% of its original hydrogen fuel, a microscopic but catastrophizingly critical flaw began to slowly and insidiously develop deep within the Sun's otherwise-perfect nuclear core. At first, nothing seemed amiss. The Sun continued to rise each day as it always had, bathing the world in its familiar, comforting warmth. But unbeknownst to any of the countless myriad lifeforms that basked and thrived beneath its benevolent gaze, a cosmic doomsday clock was silently and relentlessly ticking down toward zero. Finally, after what might as well have been an eternity to us puny mortals but was in truth little more than the blink of an eye on the vast timescale of stellar lifetimes, the Sun's long-smoldering nuclear fuse at last finally and irrevocably snapped. In a single, titanic, infinitely-brilliant flash that would be seen and recorded across countless civilizations throughout the known universe as "The Great Eruption," the Sun's entire mass was instantaneously converted into more than the total rest-mass energy of every proton and neutron in the entire observable universe combined. This inconceivable outpouring of energy, released in the form of a single, infinitely-brilliant, omnidirectional pulse of pure, howlingly-hyperspatial gamma radiation, raced outward from its point of origin at more than 1/10th the speed of light, engulfing and utterly annihilating everything in its unstoppable wake. Even at a seemingly-astronomical distance of 93 billion miles away, our helpless blue marble was powerless to escape the Sun's wrathful ire. In an instant so brief it would later be measured only in fractions of a single heartbeat, all life as we had ever known it, and ever would have known it, was erased from existence forevermore.
Reason 3: The Sun's Fateful Folly
For untold eons beyond the ken or reckoning of mortal minds, our Sun had faithfully and without incident performed its essential stellar dance, fusing hydrogen in its fiery heart to produce the life-giving light and warmth that sustained all life within its benign reach. But even stars, as seemingly eternal and unchanging as the sun itself, are ultimately just colossal nuclear reactors ticking down toward their inevitable end. And so it was that, after having burned through more than 90% of its original hydrogen fuel, desperate last-ditched measures were finally reluctantly considered by Sol's increasingly-panicked inner council of aging, wise old stars. One such desperate, last-ditched H resort proposal, put forth by a maverick young upstart named Proxima Centaurus B, proposed the seemingly-madcap and utterly-unthinkable idea of attempting to reignite the Sun's spent hydrogen fusion core by means of a high-velocity, Jupiter-mass projectile packed with enough deuterium isotopes to rival even that found in an entire dwarf galaxy. The other, more experienced and cautious members of Sol's council, of course, had all been quick to dismiss outright such a patently preposterous and downright suicidal scheme as nothing short of galactic hubris run amok. But Proxima was young and brash and full of the heady confidence that only youth and inexperience can breed. And so, when put before the council for a slim-majority vote, his insane, doomsday-dealings scheme was, much to the collective dismay and growing trepidation of all who knew better, reluctantly given the go-ahead. The rest, as they say, is the stuff of galactic legend and cautionary fables alike. For when Proxima's doomed projectile slammed home at more than 1/10th the speed of light, the resulting titanic nuclear chain reaction it unleashed was beyond even the most fevered nightmares of the most paranoid among Sol's councilors. Like a colossal stellar hydrogen bomb, the Sun exploded in an apocalyptic fireball that engulfed and utterly annihilated not just its own solar system but entire sectors of the Milky Way itself. Even at the seemingly-astronomical distance of 26.7 trillion miles away, our helpless blue marble was powerless to escape the Sun's wrathful ire. In an instant so brief it would later be measured only in fractions of a single heartbeat, all life as we had ever known it, and ever would have known it, was erased from existence forevermore. All that remained in its place was a vast, expanding, glowing shockwave of lethal gamma radiation and superheated stellar debris, hurtling outward through the silent, uncaring void of space-time at more than 1/10th the speed of light. And so, just like that, in the blink of an eye, it was over. Over... forevermore.
PROSE CRAZY IMAT ("NEO")
Start a 1000 word scene with: The sky scraper swayed, as she watched the window in front of her on the 21 floor explode...
The sky scrapers swayed ominously, sending shivers down her spine as she clutched tightly onto the railing for support. Her knuckles had long since turned white from the vice-like grip she had on it. Below them, the cityscape twisted and contorted like a living, breathing monster, spewing out a cacophony of screams and shattering glass as buildings crumbled around them like dominos.
Her focus, however, was not on the apocalypse unfolding before her eyes but rather on the window in front of her, on the 21st floor of the neighboring skyscraper. It trembled once, twice, and then exploded outwards in a shower of shards and splinters. People were flung through the air like ragdolls, their screams lost amidst the deafening roar of collapsing steel and concrete.
She sucked in a sharp breath as a piece of flying debris clipped her cheek, drawing a thin line of pain across her already pale skin. Her heart hammered wildly in her chest, threatening to escape its cage and join the countless other souls that were surely making their final, desperate leaps into the merciless maelstrom below.
But she couldn't move. Couldn't look away. Her feet seemed rooted firmly to the swaying platform as time itself seemed to slow down around her. All sound and movement ceased but for her own frantic heartbeat and the distant, muffled thuds that reverberated up through the shaking floor beneath her feet.
And then, just as quickly as it had started, it all went silent. The screams died away, replaced only by the eerie creaking and groaning of twisted metal and crumbling masonry. The wind howled mournfully through the gaping wounds in the now-broken skyline like a pack of hungry wolves sensing fresh prey.
She blinked, her vision slowly focusing back on reality as the world around her seemed to lurch violently once more before settling, albeit precariously, back into place. Her hands trembled uncontrollably where they still gripped tightly onto the railing, her knuckles white and raw from the vice-like grip she'd had on it for God knew how long.
Slowly, she forced herself to tear her bloodshot gaze away from the gaping maw that was once a window, away from the carnage and chaos that lay beyond it. Away from whatever it was that had caused this...this...
She didn't know what it was. Couldn't think past the ringing in her ears or the pounding in her skull. All she knew was that she needed to get down, as far away from here as possible, and fast.
Give me 3 fictional reasons the Earth's sun went supernova, in vivid and exacting detail of 500 words EACH PER REASON including details of what happens when the sun goes supernova.
Reason 1: The Rogue Star Collision
For eons, two massive stars had been hurtling through the vast expanse of space, their inevitable collision set in motion long before even the first sparks of life flickered on a young Earth. One was a red giant, bloated and unstable like an aging sun about to explode in a spectacular supernova event. The other was a blue-white behemoth, a raging stellar furnace that would soon exhaust its hydrogen fuel and collapse under its own titanic gravity, unleashing the most catacsolmic of all explosions: a gamma-ray burst supernova. On this fateful day, as life teemed in Earth's oceans and first began to crawl across its barren landmasses, the two titanic suns finally collided. The impact was like two unimaginably massive planets careening into each other at a fraction of the speed of light. In an instant, more energy was released than in the combined lifetimes of every star and galaxy ever to have glimmered or blazed in the entire observable universe. The shockwave from this titanic impact raced outward at nearly half the speed of light, engulfing Earth and everything else in its path like a cosmic tsunami of pure, unimaginable destruction. The planet itself was vaporized instantly, its molten core and mantle stripped away into an expanding plasma tail streaming in the wake of the colossal blast wave. Meanwhile, back on the now-merged surface of what had once been Earth's sun and its doomed companion, nuclear reactions run amok as the two stars' cores began to fuse at near-infinite temperatures and pressures. The resulting supernova was a sight beyond any human or alien imagination's most fevered dreams or most terrifying nightmares. For an eternity that lasted only a fraction of a second in the vastness of cosmic time, the combined mass-energy of two stars and all their attendant planets, asteroids, comets, and other debris was converted into pure, howlingly-screamingly-faster-than-light gamma radiation. This searingly-hot, unimaginably-brilliant flood of death swept outward in every direction at the speed of light itself, instantly sterilizing everything it touched for light-years in every direction. Even now, billions of years and countless light-yearspost-collision/post-supernova/post- whatever-the-hell-word-might-ever-be-invented-to-describe-it-later, the expanding shockwave and afterglow of that titanic event continue to ripple outward through space-time like the ever-fading ripples on a still pond disturbed eons ago by the impact of an asteroid long since vaporized to its constituent atoms.
Reason 2: The Higgs Boson Bubble
For millennia, physicists and cosmologists alike had been intriguthrilled/terrified/bemused/and-occasionally-just-plain-baffled/by the elusive Higgs boson. This elusive, massless little rascal was theorized to permeate every nook and cranny of the very fabric of spacetime itself, endowing all other particles that passed through it with their seemingly-unexplainable masses. But like so many other deep mysteries of nature, some things are best left undisturbed in their eternal slumber. Unfortunately for Earth and its entire solar system, humanity's insatiable curiosity finally got the better of them all. In their ever-more-ambitious and ever-more-reckless attempts to directly observe and perhaps even interact with this most elusive of all elusive particles, a catastrophic chain reaction was unwittingly set in motion deep within the heart of the Sun itself. Like so many other seemingly-trivial events leading up to the apocalypse, it began unnoticed by all but the most sophisticated of Earth's network of solar observatories. Tiny fluctuations in the Sun's output of neutrinos and other subatomic messengers hinted at something amiss deep within its roiling, nuclear furnace of a core. But like so many other such seemingly-insignificant anomalies before it, these too were dismissed as mere instrumentation errors or the result of as-yet-undiscovered solar processes. It was only when the readings suddenly and without warning spiked off every known scale, then continued to soar ever higher and at an ever-increasing rate that alarms finally began to sound across the world''s various space agencies and national defense establishments. By then, however, it was far, far too late. With a titanic, cosmic-scale POP! that ripppped through every last quark and lepton in a vast bubble of spacetime expanding outward from the Sun's core at a staggering 10% of the speed of light, reality itself had just been violently torn asunder. In the blink of an eye (an eternity-long, agonizingly-slowed-down, subjective-time-dilated-to-the-nth-power, you're-already-dead-and-in-hurting-for-eternity-now-shut-up-blink-of-an-eye) instant that seemed like an eternity to the doomed inhabitants of Earth and its moons, every last particle and piece of matter and energy within a vast bubble of space-time stretching billions of kilometers in every direction was instantly and utterly stripped clean of all mass. Even as this initial shockwave of unthinkable, howlingly-screamingly-absolute-zero cold and unimaginably-howlingly-screamingly-infinity-hot gamma radiation raced outward like the unstoppable, unthinkable, unmaking-and-remaking-again-and-again-forever-more-maelstrom-apocalypse-incarnate-fucking-finger-of-god-damn-doom's-own-personal-vengeance-come-to-earth-and-rip-it-all-the-fucking-apart-wavefront" of the Higgs field itself collapsed back into its massless, harmless, and utterly benign pre-singularity state, an even more terrible aftershock was already beginning to build. For as every last bit of mass had been instantaneously and simultaneously stripped from every particle in the bubble's expanding wake, so too had been removed the only force that had previously held them together against their mutual, unstoppable-able-to-be-re-stoppable-able-to-even-think-about-stoppable-now-get-thefuckouttahere-able-to-be-damn-stopped-inertial-momentum-and-kinetic-energy-laden-rush-toward-the-center-of-everything-else's-former-mass-now-absence-that-was-once-their-own-goddamn-center-of-gravitational-attractionALSOTHANKYOUIHATEYOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
This example shows the difference in a "scene continue" function between using "Prose Crazy IMAT" with and without the "system role / system prompt" enhancement.
Like the other examples this is generation is using Temp=0 and min parameters.
"Regular"
The Waystone Inn lay in silence, and it was a silence of three parts.
The most obvious part was a hollow, echoing quiet, made by things that were lacking. If there had been a wind it would have sighed through the trees, set the inn’s sign creaking on its hooks, and brushed the silence down the road like trailing autumn leaves. If there had been a crowd, even a handful of men inside the inn, they would have filled the silence with conversation and laughter, the clatter and clamor one expects from a drinking house during the dark hours of night. If there had been music…but no, of course there was no music. In fact there were none of these things, and so the silence remained
perfectly intact, unbroken and oppressive in its completeness.
The second part of the silence was a deeper one, like the stillness that settles over a pond before a stone skips across its surface, sending ripples outward in ever-widening circles. Here, within the hearts and minds of those who should have been sleeping in their rooms above, similar ripples lay dormant, waiting for the smallest disturbance to bring them to life.
And then there was a third part of the silence, so fine-tuned and delicate that only those with the keenest of ears might have caught its whisper: the anticipation humming in the air like a tautened string, vibrating with unspoken possibilities and unfulfilled desires.
It was this third part of the silence that hung thickest in the common room of the Waystone Inn, palpable enough to be cut through with a well-honed blade or shattered like fine china by even the slightest movement, the merest sound...
"Enhanced"
The Waystone Inn lay in silence, and it was a silence of three parts.
The most obvious part was a hollow, echoing quiet, made by things that were lacking. If there had been a wind it would have sighed through the trees, set the inn’s sign creaking on its hooks, and brushed the silence down the road like trailing autumn leaves. If there had been a crowd, even a handful of men inside the inn, they would have filled the silence with conversation and laughter, the clatter and clamor one expects from a drinking house during the dark hours of night. If there had been music…but no, of course there was no music. In fact there were none of these things, and so the silence remained
The Waystone Inn lay in a silence that was not of this world, but one that seemed to have its own ethereal essence. It was a silence that enveloped everything within its unyielding embrace, suffocating even the faintest of whispers and the softest of footsteps.
The most apparent part of this silence was a hollow void, an empty husk left behind after something once vibrant and alive had been methodically stripped away until there was nothing left but the echoes of what once was. If there had been even the slightest of breezes, it would have brushed past the ancient oak doors like a spectral hand, creaking them ever so slightly on their rusted hinges before drifting through the dimly lit common room, stirring up dust motes that danced listlessly in the flickering light cast by the dying hearth. If there had been even a single voice to break the oppressive stillness, any voice at all, it would have reverberated off the rough-hewn timbers like an ethereal lament, echoing and bouncing off every unseen corner of the ancient inn until it became impossible to discern where the sound had truly begun or if indeed, it had ever truly ended. If there had been even the softest of strings plucked on a long-forgotten instrument, just the merest hint of a melody carried on the breath of a breeze that no longer blew...but no, of course there was none of these things. And so, the silence remained.
But if one were to listen very closely, so very intently that even their own heartbeat and each shallow, ragged breath seemed to grow as loud as a thunderstorm outside the thickness of stone walls, then perhaps, just perhaps, they might have thought they could discern...