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RG-50.030.0001

So, you decided to get out of the city. Did you know people there? Were you neighbors still there?

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RG-50.030.0001

In which city?

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RG-50.030.0001

The little city?

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RG-50.030.0001

The people were still there, all of them, except those who were hurt by the bombs or those who escaped to Warsaw. There were more or less -- 1t was right after the war and they did not suffer too much. We suffered because we were orphans.

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RG-50.030.0001

Nobody tried to take care of you?

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RG-50.030.0001

It was just everyone for himself.

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RG-50.030.0001

So what did you all do?

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RG-50.030.0001

We got together the first night, my brothers and sisters, went back to Warsaw, and me and my little brother were left behind we could sell anything we had, and then we went to Warsaw. We all went to Warsaw. And of course, there was no place to be. It was already around December. Somehow my older brother, who was a university student got together with this professor to place us in an orphanage. He couldn't take care of us either. He was about 19 years old. So, he took us over. He had another one by the name of Adolf Therman who was the head of the Health and Children.

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RG-50.030.0001

But this is the same --

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RG-50.030.0001

I don't know. I knew him by the name of Adolf, because eventually I worked with him in Ghetto. They took us over across to place, at that time, and they separated my two little sisters. Also, at the place there was a place for girls and me and my younger brother over there. My older brother suffered probably , and I don't remember how he was existing, but later on I think he had a job.

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RG-50.030.0001

So, you went to the orphanage you think about December of '39?

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RG-50.030.0001

It was close to January already. I'm sorry the exact dates I just don't know. I could know if I could concentrate.

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RG-50.030.0001

What was the orphanage like?

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RG-50.030.0001

It was a big building, many children over there. It was an organized like a government inside the orphanage. Each one had his own supposed to do certain things. They had a court, they had people older people who took care of the youngsters to see that they washed, they cleaned. There were people who had to make up the beds. It was just like an internal -- they had a court, if someone deviated from certain things, he was punished. The doctor was just going around. He knew that you're going to do it right. However, I personally was a rebel in this, because most of the kids were just orphans since they were children. They knew their ways. I was very bitter. I was bitter that all of sudden my father used to care about orphans, and all of a sudden I'm an orphan. So, I did not go according to regulations. I used to run away to my brother's all the time, and I did not -- I would say I was not a good boy there.

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RG-50.030.0001

Did they assign you certain jobs or duties?

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RG-50.030.0001

We used to get jobs, you know, cleaning dishes. Cleaning . I don't remember. I don't recall, but I tried to get away from it because I was not used to the kids and them with the routines. To me it wasn't routine. It was like punishment.

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RG-50.030.0001

Now, did you get punished by the court?

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RG-50.030.0001

I was not punished, in fact they made me part of the court, because I was an older boy. Somehow, the regimentation down there, I wasn't too respected because I was fresh one, you know. But they tried to give me some responsibilities.

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RG-50.030.0001

How many people were in the court?

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RG-50.030.0001

I really can't recall, but I would say it was over a hundred.

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RG-50.030.0001

Do you remember liking any of the staff or any relationships with them?

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RG-50.030.0001

Oh yes, with the older ones. We had beds of 30 to 40 in a room, and we had to have friends at night. We tried to get into mischief. I know now, kids are mischievous. On the signal to go to sleep, we pretended we were going to sleep, but we used to talk a lot. I had friends.

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RG-50.030.0001

What did you talk about?

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RG-50.030.0001

Well, let me tell you, mostly child talk, because these children down there, they were raised differently. I was born, I mean I was raised and I spoke Yiddish quite a bit, but they spoke Polish only. Their vision of life was different because he taught them he really taught them discipline. They were schooled and schooled in certain areas, they were way ahead of me. A few friends I had.

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RG-50.030.0001

Were you going to school at that time?

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RG-50.030.0001

Well, from what I know now, officially we're not supposed to have schooling. There was no schooling any more, no school outside, but inside there were certain people who worked there for years and they were teachers and they gave us lesson. I wouldn't say that I attended them, but I did.

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RG-50.030.0001

What do you remember about the orphanage that you appreciated?

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RG-50.030.0001

First of all the food. I appreciated the food because three times a day we were eating. It was just the beginning of the war. America was not at war then and they used to ship from Switzerland or from other areas, they used to ship food, so there was no scarcity of food, but I appreciated that because between the time I got into the orphanage and I lived in a room somewhere with my brothers and sisters, we had no food. That's what I appreciated.

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RG-50.030.0001

Any other good memories about the orphanage?

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RG-50.030.0001

Yes, I had very good memories, very good memories, but I was bitter because I couldn't-- I think I was bitter because I couldn't imagine that I'll ever be an orphan at one time. I used to know orphans, you know either the father died, or the mother died and they put them in, but all of a sudden I had both gone, and what hurts me more is that I had a couple of sisters there. I don't think the very young even knew that she didn't have. There was a little girl, she must be four years old. She was taken in, but she was asking a little bit about her parents. That hurts me, but otherwise I think I was stronger at time. I took it the way it was, because I was very happy they took me into that orphanage. I already seen young kids going around and asking for bread, but whether I was happy or unhappy, I don't know, but I appreciated being there.

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RG-50.030.0001

Did you spend time with your sisters and brother in the orphanage?

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RG-50.030.0001

I used to see him not very often because all of a sudden, my older sister was very knowledgeable -- my younger sister. But the rest of them, they were very young, they got involved in playing, involved in the procedure of the place. They had little girlfriends. That's it.

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RG-50.030.0001

So anything else you can remember about the original orphanage, the way it was run, the teachers, the cultural activities?

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RG-50.030.0001

I already told you it was run like a government. This guy, I didn't see him very often I want you to know, but whenever I seen him, he was very lenient man. He if a kid was sick he would go by and pat him. He was very good, because I remember he even used to take out the excrement in the morning. He got up very early. I don't remember him very well because I was a stranger down there. He figured that probably that I am not his in Polish they call it . He did not raise me, you understand? He more or less, he liked more the kids which he raised. Don't forget that he was the kind of a man he read a lot of books which as I a child I was reading. Only of us children, all kinds of mysteries about how children behave and and we used to have theaters there too. We used to have what do you call , all kind of marionettes. In the beginning of the war you could do almost a lot of things, but the Germans were not organized yet. They couldn't cope with a half a million Jews, and the Jews were not, at that time, segregated. Tape #2

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RG-50.030.0001

Any other memories of ?

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RG-50.030.0001

Other than seeing them go out, we were waiting for him a lot of times. He was busy almost every day, going out and arranging for help. This orphanage was very organized. It was, I think at that time, it was even run by the Polish, by the city, but there were many, many orphanages at that time in Warsaw. I am going to run away from myself. That's how we organized later when I had to leave. I haven't got too many memories of that man because I was there only a short time. He would go around and check, ask if we had enough to eat maybe comfort me once in a while, say everything will work out, and the staff was very nice. The staff there understood that I was just a freshly baked orphan, so they were nice to me. They knew also that I had a brother, a little brother, my two sisters and so that's all I remember.

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RG-50.030.0001

Do you remember any of the in particular, Stephan?

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RG-50.030.0001

Stephan, yes I saw her once in a while. An elderly lady who was very nice. That's all I know, and I used to ask her how my little sisters are. She said don't worry about them. They are fine. I used to come in and she's show me the little children were dancing. I think my little one forgot all about my parents. She was involved in the life. The older one --.

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RG-50.030.0001

How long were you in the orphanage?

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RG-50.030.0001

The best that I can recall I would say almost two months.

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RG-50.030.0001

Then what happened?

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RG-50.030.0001

Then he organized, we must have organized it before, there was a place somewhere in Warsaw, in the Jewish district and they called that -- they took all the older boys down there all the freshly orphans which they took in, boys only, and they organized what they called a House of Boys, under their supervision, but they had a different administrator. That administrator was a professor, a Jewish professor. So, they took us, this guy would and other guys who were approximately over 11 years old, and they organized a new home. This home was, again, they tried to get us to gover -- which you'll see in this little book and it was very nice, I want you to know.

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RG-50.030.0001

What was the name of the Professor?

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RG-50.030.0001

From what I remember, I did not remember, but my friend told me it was

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RG-50.030.0001

How many boys were at this House of Boys?

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RG-50.030.0001

Eventually they took a lot of boys off the street, too, and I would think I would say between 70, around there, 80. My little brother could have stayed with him, but he didn't want to stay. He wanted to go with me. We were both there

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RG-50.030.0001

What was different from this orphanage from the other orphanage?

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RG-50.030.0001

It was completely different. The task of this place was we should be more or less responsible even economically for everything. They used to send children like to barbers where they cleaned up. They used to send people to shoemakers they should help. They used to send people out, the little older boys, because they were up to 15, 16, some of them even had a little children. Normally in Europe, if a kid finished school, he became an apprentice somewhere. So, people used to make money, kids used to make money and they would take the money and buy food. In other words, you almost had to be self sufficient.

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RG-50.030.0001

What kind of work did you do?

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RG-50.030.0001

I did all kinds of jobs. My first job was I worked with very responsible people who were directing the food distribution for all orphanages in Warsaw.

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RG-50.030.0001

Were these Jewish people.

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RG-50.030.0001

Jewish people, only in the Jewish district. I can't tell you when it happened, but I can tell you what happened, because we at that point, a Ghetto, I mean were all together. Jews were separated, not completely yet, but they were separated. And we used to go out to all kinds of work. I worked with this -- he liked me this guy, and he directed the food distribution. He directed the people, had to hide whatever they had, the Germans would confiscate everything for free. So, they used to hide things in the cellars, wherever they could and then bring it up, because the American was already working there for orphanages, and I was there working. They used to bring all their wares, their samples and they would distribute all the samples. They didn't give them any money, but they gave them certain numbers in Switzerland that later on they'll be able to collect. Now, I know they never collected. But my job was . We used to - we didn't have any horses or anything, we used to have a little buggy, long buggy, one on the side and I on other side and we would pull from place to place and distribute food. This I got so many bread. That was my first job. It lasted something like three months. Then I had other jobs.

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RG-50.030.0001

Do you want to tell me about your other jobs?

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RG-50.030.0001

You keep asking me because the last job was the job where I could not come back to the orphanage anymore.

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RG-50.030.0001

So, let's talk more about the orphanage. So, you remember, this orphanage were you accepted a little more or were you still --?

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RG-50.030.0001

It was more responsible. We were older kids. We were reading newspapers. And I want you to know, it went like a university. In this orphanage you had the biggest I would say doctors, the Germans as a rule tried to kill whether they were Poles or Jews all the intelligent, all the professors, doctors and colleges, all of them, so at this orphanage we had even though we knew who they were, but we had the very educated, most educated of Warsaw and surrounding. They were professors, they were the chief rabbis of a city called . They were they liked me, one guy wanted the best chore. There were other professors who were hiding there. They were cleaning, they were cooking in order not to be discovered by these Germans. And since they worked in orphanages, I don't think the Germans checked too well. There were a few times they took out some. So, at night we were not allowed to go to school -- when night came after supper, what I know now how education goes, we had a terrific lectures on everything. In other words, it was something like a university. All the boys would sit down and they would give us lectures in history, Jewish history and then they would always give us geography and any other arithmetic every other night another professor would start teaching us. Then the rabbi would teach us Judaism. It was like a university.

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RG-50.030.0001

You appreciated this?

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RG-50.030.0001

Very much. I wouldn't miss those things. I couldn't understand you know, I used to go to public school and I didn't finish, so I couldn't understand how nicely the interpreter was.

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RG-50.030.0001

Do you remember what street this orphanages was on?

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RG-50.030.0001

Yes 1t was on Gesha 6.

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RG-50.030.0001

Do you remember any particular professors who were here that you remember their names?

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RG-50.030.0001

Those who were officially -- there was like people who worked there and they were also very educated people because they tried to -- you had to a lot of influence to get off the street of Warsaw and work in orphanages. But at that same time they had to have a certain amount of education.

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RG-50.030.0001

I was just asking for the record were there any younger leaders or professors there that you can remember their names?

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RG-50.030.0001

I really cannot recall names, but I know some of them didn't even give their real names because they were hiding. They didn't want to be killed by the Gestapo.

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RG-50.030.0001

In the orphanages, either of them, did you observe the Sabbath and the Jewish holidays?

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RG-50.030.0001

Why certainly, definitely. We were all Jewish kids and there was a chief rabbi down there.

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RG-50.030.0001

Friday evening there were special ceremony.

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RG-50.030.0001

It was special. We maybe had a little more bread and we were singing the songs.

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RG-50.030.0001

You rested on Saturday?

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RG-50.030.0001

Not all of us. Those who had to work, and even some of them worked with the Germans outside the area and they had to go.

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RG-50.030.0001

What was involved with in this orphanage. Did he come by?

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RG-50.030.0001

He supervised and he came by I would say very often. He would stop by and check with the and he would recognize us. He would check to see with they guys who were running it. He felt that this was his responsibility, because a lot of them other than me they were also his kids who were brought up by him.

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RG-50.030.0001

How long did you stay at the House for Boys?

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RG-50.030.0001

I would say about a year and a half.

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RG-50.030.0001

Your brother also?

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RG-50.030.0001

My little brother, too.

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RG-50.030.0001

Did you make good friends in this orphanage?

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RG-50.030.0001

Oh yes. In fact, they used to bring new ones from the area, very nice educated kids, those who were qualified they brought into work.

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RG-50.030.0001

Was there an effort, now that the war was on and everybody's motives were changed so much, that they let in a lot more people who's orphanages --

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RG-50.030.0001

I don't know anything about before the war, but I'll tell you they did not they couldn't get into our place because the rooms, the area was very small and we had 30 40 people in a room. I don't think they could absorb more but they did not have a place for them.

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RG-50.030.0001

Did you notice maybe that wanted to protect everyone who needed protection at the time so he opened more places?

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RG-50.030.0001

I have heard at that time that he was very influential even with the city who was catholic, but they respected him and I think he did open a few more somewhere. If he didn't open officially, he took them off the streets.

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RG-50.030.0001

I've heard some crazy stories about , he's a character.

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RG-50.030.0001

Well, I would compare him to a hippie, I want you to know. He never dressed, you know, and he wasn't really sophisticated. He was just like a hippie.

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RG-50.030.0001

He seemed to be able to help people, get money and really accomplished something incredible.

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RG-50.030.0001

What they tried to do 1n this orphanage, they tried to make human beings out of us under the worst circumstances because inside we were like an island. Outside it was hell, a real hell. People were dying of starvation and even in the beginning they were dying of starvation, people some of their parents left for Russia, left the wife with the children. It was very bad outside. Here you tried to organize it in such a way that everyone either worked or if you couldn't find work give him a trade inside. Little kids became shoe makers, cabinet makers. They brought up old tools.

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RG-50.030.0001

You said that you had other jobs?

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RG-50.030.0001

Yes, and this was my downfall. I had other jobs where they used to send me I guess what happened is I wasn't strong enough to pull the buggy so they sent me they had other jobs, to send me to people in factories where they were making clothes. But my last job, that was my downfall. That was my downfall. They sent me to a factory outside the Ghetto. I had to go at 5:00 in the morning. You had to go with the German sentries. If they wanted to warm themselves up, they would chase me around just for exercise. They would chase me around and around and made me run. It was bad. So, I went through it was a problem in Ghetto a big foundry, a big factory run by Germans and some Jews who before the war were foremen. I used to get up in the morning hoping that I would get to eat something. But somehow they didn't give me any food and the job was very horrid. I had to pick up 30 or 40 pounds of burned up steel and throw them into the fire walking on the . I was very week. I couldn't do the job. I was always thinking to escape. It was horrible. So eventually some Polish people who worked with me, they give me a piece of bread. I was still hungry. The orphanage -- the people were still sleeping while I was going to work. I wasn't the only one, in other places they woke up early. So, around noon time -- this was my downfall, maybe you should understand, I was very hungry, hard work for now I know for a boy was terrible. I had to walk up with a load of 40 or 50 pounds. Finally around noon time it wasn't arranged for me to have food and the Poles give me a little bread but they didn't have themselves. They were working people, hard working people, and I explained I came from the orphanage because I had to keep up with them and I couldn't keep up. I think I was about 14 years old, and I wasn't too strong either. So, they took pity on me and they helped me a little bit, but I was still hungry. What my downfall is, it started with a dog. These people who ran the place they had their own big house next to it. They were German soldiers and German civilians because most of this was going for the armaments. They were making presses there and everything. Somehow they were always happened, but I noticed that the dog gets a lot of food after lunch. The dog got a lot of food but I couldn't reach it. Everytime I went by I wanted to grab something. Finally I got acquainted over a week or two he would finish eating I would grab some. He was happy, and it was good stuff for the dog. I ate it and I felt good. So one day, I could always get after he was finished. If not, he would growl. That was one day one of the foreman, I don't know if he was Jewish or non-Jewish, came out and grabbed me and slapped me and hit me. You go taking away the food of the dog. Don't you get enough food. I was working there for two weeks, I had no food. Nevertheless, he called a couple of other Germans over and he shamed me in front of them. Because I know it wasn't the first time I got hurt that way, but , he had engineering place, all kinds of instruments and a Polish engineer was there and he started hitting me again. Aren't you ashamed he said. You're a Jewish boy, to do those things. When he hit me very hard, I got very excited and figured that's the end of me. I grabbed a inch by inch a steel ruler and I grabbed it instantly without thinking and hit him in the glasses and I think I blinded him. I escaped. I could run through before the assessment checked by paper I was gone already anyhow, but I had legitimate papers anyhow to go from the Ghetto, and I was afraid to go back in. Then my little brother came out at night. I was I think sleeping over at my brother's. He said, don't go there. The Jewish police are looking for you and if you go in there you might compromise the whole place. I don't know to this day what happened to that man, but I know the glasses and blood was running out. From then on I became what we call in the Ghetto, a wild boy. My brother didn't have enough food, so to tell you it was horrible. I used to wake up 5:00 in the morning hoping there would be a lot of dead people on the street. Hoping I don't know maybe it was just that I wanted to live, but everyday hundreds of people would lay down and die. They couldn't either take it anymore or sick or just froze to death or gave up. I used to wake up 5:00 in the morning, I wasn't the only one I want you to know, and kind of stuffed my hands in the pockets of those half dead or dead people and whatever bread -- in Warsaw everybody you couldn't go away without a piece of bread. I got a piece of bread here, a piece of bread here. Sometimes a dead person I would even take off a watch too, to help myself. That's how I got breakfast, and some of it I had for lunch. Some of the time I was beaten up. They used to smuggle in potatoes. If something fell I would grab and they would run after me and beat the hell out of me. Hygiene, very dirty. There was no place to take a shower any more. You go around desperate. So, finally I decided I'm going to go out to the other side. I didn't run away but to go out for some food. One incident I want to tell you. So, the situation was very bad. Children, especially elderly people would be laying down there dead either of typhus or any other sickness or just frozen to death because they had no place to stay or they gave up. I decided with other kids we're going to take a chance. They used to take out groups to work outside the Ghetto so we were to get in there and as soon as we passed, the Germans did not especially check those who went out, they only checked those who came back, so we used to go and beg for food. One time, very early, I and two more friends, I'm sorry do you want me to tell you this is just the gist of one event. We're trying to get in and beg for food. We have learned already a little bit how to greet catholic people in their way. So, it was about a four or five story building and right after the curfew we got in there the superintendent opened there's a certain gate, and each one of us went to a different floor. I knocked on the door. A woman looks and me and I try to cross myself and say whatever I knew and say what I had to. She said to me, "Look, you don't have to do that. I know who you are." I probably wasn't the first boy to beg for food, but she was all messed up. A nice woman and the first thing she asked me to take off my clothes and she prepared some hot water and especially we had so many lice on us they were eating us alive. We did not look good. That's how they recognized us anyhow. So, she said don't worry about it. Take it off and I'll burn it. I will cook it. Then she was cooking for me something like buckwheat. And they were poor themselves. She didn't have anything to give other than to cook something. And I was hungrier than hell. She sat down with me and I think she was a good woman, but all of a sudden she started talking religion to me. She said it's such a pity that you Jewish children can not go to kingdom of heaven and he had to bring Hitler a man, the destroyer. I kind of looked at her and I figured I was brought up religious in other ways, but I figured she's good, so I said okay. Well, I understand, but what can we do we're hungry. All of a sudden we were sitting down there and I didn't eat yet. I hear a shot. The superintendent of the building must have called up the police, the local police and I looked down and one of my friends was shot. He was shot in the leg and he fell. I didn't know what happened yet to the guy on the second floor, but that woman, we realized first I said hide me somewhere. So, she took me in a closet, in Europe they have, like you have hear, where you hang your clothes, inside they have outside, and she put me in there and she locked me up. She covered me with all kinds of furs, whatever was in there and took the key out and went to the neighbors. She was afraid that if they catch me down there, they'll kill her too. So, she went to the neighbors, and I was lucky she took out the key with her so I didn't have any air. I was holding my nose against, and I was sweating and I thought this is the end. They'll probably ask the other kid on the second floor what happened, where I am who is the other one because the superintendent saw three kids coming, three Jewish kids. Well, I was there, running was water, I thought this is the end of me. I couldn't breath. I think I passed out for a while. All of a sudden I hear a scream and I thought it was German, but it wasn't, it was a husband and coming back and screaming. He was a good man, he says look you have to kill us. He was a railroad man, but don't suffocate him. When they took me out, I didn't go out, I fell out. But he was a good man, and he hid me with neighbors. Gave me new clothes because my clothes were wet. He was still cooking and food and everything and at night he took me through because he worked with the German Army and he was very connected with the police and I went through with a lot of food. He gave me food and everything I brought in I think two weeks I ate. I had food for two weeks. What I'm trying to tell you is an accident again, I had to hide because the other kid was beaten to hell, almost dead. The guy on the second floor. I don't know what happened to the first floor whether they took him back to the hospital or not. I never met him. This kid, the other one, told on me and again I had to change clothes. I had to make myself all kind of dirty things on it because I was cleaned up already, and they didn't recognize me. But I was sought again by the Jewish police because the German gave him the description, who Iam. Finally I think it's impossible for me to be there. I am going to die there. I went over to my brother. I didn't even bother telling my younger brother, because we were close. I said to my older brother, I said look I want on the other side, some of them recognized, some of them didn't recognize. I am going to escape. Whatever happens, happens, but I'm not going to die here like the rest of the kids. So, he says look, tell me something, you go because there's no hope here. I'll take you through. The way they took through people was they went to work outside and they could squeeze me, but he was already an educated guy. He belonged to a group they were revisionists, a group, a Zionist group and I guess he was more or less in underground already. They had certain connections with people in Slovakia so he kind of drew up a map for me if I get over there. He drew up amap. You take this boat. There was a boat going. There was a rive in Poland which goes through the whole country. When you hit under the try to go across and we have connections with these people who are saving Jews. So, he gave me a map and everything, gave me a few dollars, whatever he had and whatever I had, not much, and to go and get a ticket. I walked out of the group which went to work and ran away. I want to tell you, he helped me, my brother he gave me whatever money he had. He bought a little jacket for me and a little hat and proper shoes, not too good but shoes. I went out there and I went to get a ticket and I went to get a ticket and I hesitated, I was moving back, because there was a line of people, to go or not to go, because I think only older people go and I was just a little kid in between. So, I moved out, all of sudden, with a German he asked me he says to me he grabbed me he says listen to me, don't go in there in German they said they'll you. They will finish you off in German. I pretended I didn't know a word of German. So I was saying again in Czech again. He got mad and he started talking in Polish. He knew both languages. He said you get the hell away from here. They will kill you. I have an idea after today, he was an angel and he saved me. But where do I go. I had a map, about a journey of two days hit the in Poland, and 1 don't know where to go so I went to the Central Station. I went to Central Station but my heart was pumping. I didn't know whether they would recognize me, if they want to recognize me, but it looked like nobody paid attention to me. I had a piece of bread. This was early in the morning when I got out, and where do you go. Finally, I was afraid to go because to go into that Central Station entrance because there were so many German SS around there checking for ; which means you had to have some kind of a -- something who you are. They called them , and I had nothing. Where do you go, so I was just roaming around the street and I reminded myself my father used to go once in a while took me with him to a rabbi, a big they had those semitic groups and they used to he was maybe 60 kilometers outside of Warsaw. But they had a little train there. It wasn't large rails and small and it sort of dragged into that little city. So I said maybe down there there won't be so many soldiers. And sure enough, I went down there, it was near dusk, I figured if it get a little dusk nobody will recognize me anyhow. So, I got up, but I was afraid to buy a ticket. I got up without a ticket and I figured if they catch me I'll take out some money and give the conductor. They weren't Germans, they were just Polish workers. So, I sat down amongst the women. They were smugglers. They would smuggle in food to Warsaw and buy clothes there. This was their job. So amongst them I sat between them they asked me where do you come from? What are you doing here? I told them, listen my father was a soldier -- I made it up-- I father was in the army and he was killed. I am looking for my mother because my father lived in the German occupied area and my mother took off and she's supposed to be around this area. So, they started giving me salami, food, anything what I wanted. When the conductor came he, they said you don't touch that kid. In other words, they felt sorry for me because my father was killed. I don't know how I got that idea, but it came into me the last minute when I asked me what am I doing. I didn't have a ticket. I was still scared. When the rail -- the locomotive slowed down and the front of that city 1t was called and in the front of that city there were a lot of Germans waiting I guess checking on those people who were smuggling and when it was slowing up, it was dark already, and I jumped off. Where do you go now? I was just running in the direction of the end of the train. Dark, I went through a little river up to here, and down across was a forest and I didn't know, you wouldn't believe it, I was hoping to God and I was sorry I left Warsaw. I was real sorry, because I didn't know where to go. It was dark, cold, wet. I couldn't sleep. In the morning some elderly lady, a woman, was carrying a can of milk to distribute. I asked here where am I. I spoke very good Polish. I was very good at it. She says, first she gave me a little bit milk. She says you're so wet, what happened? I said I got in in that river and I don't know where -- I got lost. There's a little city called Varka (ph), not far, you go there. I think it was Sunday morning, I figured I'm going to go. What do you do? I went to that little city in the morning and the sun came out and I dried out and I see all the people are going to church, so I went down there to. I was afraid to stay behind someone else's house, and I seen a lot of those very old ladies sat down begging and people would give them. I sat down too, but on the side I wanted to dry out. One woman came over and said, "What are you doing little boy here between all these old people?" I said I don't know. I haven't got any money and I have a family. My father was killed. I used it, I knew it worked. My father was killed -- they took out pieces of bread they gave me. Other people said this was an orphan. His father was killed. They gave me bread and little pieces of sausage. In the meantime I dried out and they gave me a few dollars, a few . The first few dollars I had. They were selling crosses down there in front of the church. I gave the few dollars to that guy, and I got myself a very large size of across. I figured it's going to help. And I continued that day, I stuck around in that city. I went again, I was afraid to stay there. I was always worried if they ar going to recognize me or not. I figured if I keep going, I'll be dried out. It's a small village. So, I went through like a forest, and in this forest the German firm was cutting trees, I think for the coal mines, the mines. There was a sign that was two days later -- there was sign whoever works will get so many marks. In the mill in the forest they had like a trailer there and it wasn't army. These were people, 1t was a company with Germans who were preparing those trees, and a lot of Poles were working there. I went over and I asked for ajob. I asked for a job and the woman she spoke German and Polish you know. To the German she spoke German, to me she spoke Polish. Don't you think you're a little bit too young. You had to be sixteen years old. But I was very skinny too on top of it. Don't you think you're too young. You can't work because you're too young. So, one of the other Germans, a foreman said, and I understood what he was saying, tell me you'll take him in and they'll let him clean up around us. Clean up the trailer. I'm telling you, as soon as she said can you clean a little bit, nobody ever cleaned better than I did. I did a good job. Then she asked me do you have anything to show who you are? I gave the same story, my father was killed. I came from a certain city, North Poland, and I have got nothing. She said, "I'll tell you what. You work here next week. I'll go with you to another village. We'll make a photograph of you, a picture and then I'll send it into the city and they'll bring you a work card. I don't know, I think luck was with me at that time. When she said I can have a work card, and she was good to me, because I really washed and cleaned and helped. It so happened I got a work card, and I worked there for quite a while, maybe five or six weeks, until they liquidated the work place. We cut enough trees probably. They hauled them away in trucks. They hauled them away in trucks. Now, where do you go now?

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Had you changed your name for the work card?

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Why certainly, at that time my name was , with a W. I figured I can't keep my real name. I had to have a Polish name, a Christian Name, and they used to call me , So I didn't know what to do. Where do you go? Finally, they were asking, I went to another village. I already had a few dollars. The foreman gave me money. I was a polishing their boots, they had some horses, I was cleaning the horses, so I had quite a few marks at that time. So, I went to a small little village and then they had a sign. I stayed by people. They slept on the floor and they told me there's a place where they're looking for hands, working hands to help on the farm. And I have to go to the head of the area, who was naturally a German, a commandant and these people used to come and take the workers. They wanted them to have a lot of workers, because they were supplying food for the Germans. The Germans were confiscating food at that time. So, I came into a big place there, and I registered my name take a look I got working papers. They didn't ask me any questions. And a guy on a horse and buggy took me to his farm, and I had to start working on a farm. They didn't know who I was, whether I was Jewish. I had certain problems there. After a week or two I had to go to confession. Now, my father never went to confession, my grandfather neither, and I didn't know what to say either. I understood what it's all about because the son of the owner had to go and went with me. We went later than the people. He went in down there and I'm telling you my heart is just pumping, what am I going to tell the priest. What do you tell a priest, you know, I didn't understand. I never did it. Somehow I heard it. I was so scared I put my ear to the little entrance. It was a little bit ajar and I understood what he said and I asked him, he said just tell him that you didn't do anything wrong. I went in there and repeated the same thing. I repeated the same thing and somehow it didn't work. He took me out, it was a man I would say over eighty for sure, a priest. And he asked me, tell me your parents were not from the old religion , L understood that if you didn't say they were not Jews I understood right away that he was not such a bad man. If he would have been a bad man and said they were not Jews, but somehow he was very delicate about it. I asked what kind of people are those , he kind of winked at me and said if you don't know, you don't know, but an old man wore those long robes, and I think, today, he recognized me, I was Jewish. I did not do the right thing I know it, but he took advantage of me later, you know every time I had to clean up behind him in his room, he made me do it. Tape #3

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When we stopped, you were telling me about the priest who sort of recognized you but didn't acknowledge you.

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He was a very nice man. He never bothered me. I think he recognized me and I did some chores for him so I didn't have to go back to confessions. On a whole he was a heck of a nice man, because I used to go every other Sunday to him. And I worked on a farm, and I did anything people had to do on a farm and of course, since I was not used to it, it was horrid, but I was very happy. I had food. The people down there treated me well. I worked -- I think I ran out of work and to the best of my recollection I needed money because I didn't get too much money from the men but they gave me food, clothes, very nice catholic people. So, I worked for a baker. I went to work in a small little village not far. A little city for a baker, the place was called Garbutka (ph). Working for the baker, he was a very nice man, and I worked all night. From what I can recollect, that's the first time I found out of the Holocaust with him. Once we were through we sat down outside to rest. It was like it wasn't even daybreak yet. A train went down not far. A train went down there not far from there and he said you know something, these Germans are going to pay, and they're going to pay heavily for the kind of barbarism they are doing now. He told me in Polish. He was mad. He was a good man, and he said, you know something, these trains which you see going through, they are burning people alive and getting them through the chimneys and Jews. I heard that and everything inside of me started shaking. I did not believe it, you know. I didn't believe it that this could happen, something like that. They're burning -- I looked at him but I said I got very good information that that's what they do to people. One day they will pay for it. I was uneasy already, very uneasy. And I heard, not far from there there was a little Jewish Ghetto. That Ghetto was --what they did the Germans got together shoemakers, what do you call it, tailors, other let's say people who were good in certain trades. They got them together, and they worked for the Germans. This was already after they liquidated most of the Ghettos, and these people were living maybe a couple hundred of them and one man a shoemaker used to come to me the baker and he used to hide his shoes. I think he recognized me that I was Jewish. A very nice man, and he told me about the Jewish Ghetto, because he used to get out of the Ghetto, all the shoes, bring them into Ghetto, make some money and brought them back to the village, made some money and came back. One day, being in this little village, something must have happened some provocation or something, the Polish people around there were doing something, the underground which wasn't to the Gestapo liking. They must have done something bad. I didn't know anything about it. All of a sudden, I want to tell you something, my mother comes to my dream she says listen -- everytime something happened bad my mother came to my dream. She said in the morning you run away from there, and with that kind of thought I wake up and I , they are shooting people all over the village. They are shooting people in the village. I kind of remember, but it was hard to escape.

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Who and why were they shooting in the village?

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What I'm trying to tell you is they had some kind --from what I know now, I didn't know then, there was a provocation, the underground, the Polish underground probably robbed or took a lot of food out of the trains which went to the front. So they brought some kind of punishment, a company of Ukrainian all kinds of real butchers and they started killing people on the street. I look out and the priest was even taken in chains. I was looking out and I figured I'm going to run. And I think I was running better than Tarzan and I ran, but the wheat was that high and in Poland they did not have big estates, just small little parcels of land. So, in between there was one parcel of land and the other, there was what they called in Polish , like little streets, and they were having a guns machine guns down there. Anything moves, boom. I got in between and I want to tell you I was going and I figured this is the end, and I kind of ducked every minutes. After they shot, I got through. I finally got through and where do I go now. I remind myself about that Jewish Ghetto. I'm going to run there, and it was about a couple kilometers there. I was running away in my shorts. My whole body was full of blood from I was on my chest walking on my chest because I was afraid if I put my head up that was the end. Well, I finally reached that place and they let me in. The Jewish people were watching themselves too. They didn't know yet, but they had an idea. They heard all the shooting and I told them what happened. I told them listen I'm Jewish let me into this group, and I told him about that man who used to hold my shoes down there. Sure enough they went in there and he came in and took me into his house. It was very early. I was a stranger. Everybody was sleeping yet. His wife, he woke up his wife to wash me up, because I was full of blood, and I was sitting figuring, what kind of life was that. I was really disgusted. I could have been killed a couple hours ago. All of a sudden I seen the same German marching in on this place. I was a stranger and sitting behind the door and people were still sleeping behind every little house seven Germans, SS men would stand there, their guns pulled out and one of them, all of a sudden I saw that this must be the end. But I was behind the door, a stranger, and they opened the door. They went to every home, and all of a sudden one of them walks in and said all the men out. I never knew that so many men were in one little house. This guy -- so I look out through that window, through that opening, boom. Everybody that walks out boom, got a bullet right in the back of the head. At that moment, you wouldn't believe it, I saw myself dying there, and I saw a film in front me, all my life, I saw like a fast film, my life and I figured this is it there where I lay. Now, I turned into glue, I tell you. There was no escape. One guy was outside chasing out and the rest of them were shooting, one by one, in every house in front of them. The German who was chasing out, took me by my back and pulled me and I didn't give a damn. I didn't want to go. I knew I'm going to be dead and I was half conscious. So, there was one of them in the front a tall SS man. I don't know what happened but he turns me around and says in German , he's a little boy. go back. He looked me in the eyes and go back. I want to go back, but I'll never forget that guy who chased out everybody from the house, a big German like this, and assessment aren't you killed yet? I started begging him. He didn't shoot inside, he was holding the gun like that, but the women all of a sudden they saw what was happening they tore me out of his hand. The women, because they -- they killed some women, I found out later, those who resisted killing their husbands or their sons. Somehow there was scattering all those Germans so this German let them tear me out and he went outside to shoot others and they told me in this little room, the next room, the Germans were not there. They tore off the door and I go in there. There was a lady there who started crying. To the other women you brought us an angle of death to me, that I am going to spoil it for them. And they had a a little basement and one side was a bath the other side and a basement about three by three. They must have been hiding food or something because it wasn't very deep and the old man, the woman's husband was shaking he was afraid to go down. He was an old man. And I got the idea if he go down I'll go down with him. There was no escape. These two girls, one that mentioned, the two girls one of them didn't let me in and the other one said let him in. Finally they pushed the father in because the SS, the Germans were running around looking for men to shoot. They got him, but the elder sister didn't let me in, so I kind of got in, the girl pushed her away. I got in with my head down and my feet up. There wasn't enough space and I held the old man like this. When they saw the Germans approaching, they closed it, closed it very fast. They went and the Jewish people did resist at that time. They were looking around. I think they were scared themselves too. They were shooting in one bath if someone is not there, then the other bath, and I laid between and the little girl said I want to go with my Grandpa to that little basement and then I passed out. I honestly don't remember having any conscious. I don't remember until about four hours later, these two girls with another woman they pulled me up. They pulled up their father. The people were killed already. I could hardly regain my consciousness because my head was whirling. I didn't know whether I was still alive or I'm dead. They pulled me out and there was a heap of dead people, like 120. They pushed me in between and I took some and I bloodied myself to make sure that the women had to go, they disappeared, most the SS went away. They did their job, cruelly. I was laying between the dead and a couple of old local Germans were to write down how many. They pushed me up, I pretended I was dead. I was waiting. They took the women to dig a big ditch for their husband and they put all kinds of lime in there. That's what 1 heard. Then the women came back and they put us out. I was almost night, and they put us on a big horse and buggy. All the dead, I pretended I was dead too. They left a couple of Jewish policeman or ordinals, they left them alive, they helped pull it up. One of them squeezed me. I knew that he knew that I was alive. When we went somewhere I remember because after the war I went to take a look down there. I was only about 100 meters from the big ditch, and we made a turn after I decided to jump off. I don't think anybody did any shooting. Nobody did any shooting. I ran. I didn't know where I'm going. My head was whirling. All night I was running like a dead person. I didn't know where I was going and what's going to happen. Until I finally saw a little man and I told him that I worked for this guy and this guy in this village where I worked for the baker, so they gave me some clothes and they washed me, another farmer. That's how I survived this massacre.

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What was the name of the village where the Jewish Ghetto was?

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It's called Garbutka.

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Did you have any sense when this was?

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It was somewhere around either July or August 1942. At that time, we heard, because I related that that they were killing older Jews, or killing all the Jews in Warsaw. That's how I remember that. Anyhow, that's was the event, and that's why I told you off camera about this girl, that woman who saved me is in Montreal today, and I recognized it two years ago in Italy.

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The woman in the basement?

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The woman who helped me get into the basement. She had another sister who did not want me to get in there because they wanted to save their father. Anyhow I got out of this mayhem and I went to work for another -- I think 1t was again a smaller little farmer. I was afraid to go back. Eventually I went back to the camp, but what happened is I ran into another small little city and they took me to a camp. This was some kind of a camp for Poles. There was some Jews too. Not far was called . I think I was working there only two weeks. Also, they surrounded the people but supervision was done by Russian P.O.W.s and they were working on -- they were crushing stone to make some kind of a -- to go through some kind of a street. My job was -- again I was a little boy so they put me on a little lorry to hold the two -- to kind of brake and somehow I forgot my way and instead of braking I pulled the thing and naturally the guy, the foreman, he was German, started jumping and threatening me, and hitting me and bleeding me. He says I'll take care of you tonight. I want to tell you, an hour later I said I have to go to the bathroom, bloody, and I kept on walking and I escaped. That was a little camp I wasn't long there, a couple of weeks. Then I remember another event when I was in that village and there I really literally found out about the holocaust. We were taken to work down there near a train, and every week a train would come from Holland enclosed wagons, they had some wires across and there was a bag for water, and all the boys, including me, we were running to get some water, because these people I knew they were Jewish people. They were screaming in Jewish. They couldn't talk Polish, half German, but they were from Holland. And they threw gold and money and give you water. My heart was just the same thing. I was crying to myself. What the heck is going on, and I knew which direction they were going already. The whole families and they were crying and looking through the thing. Of course I didn't care about the money but some of the kids cared about the money. I didn't want to be different. I picked up too. This was going on for a few weeks. Every Thursday a train would come and I was waiting with water and other boys were waiting with water too, for money, some of them I felt very sorry for those people. One day, a train comes and I waited. This was just an event I must tell you. I'm holding a bucket of water and a train comes but not that kind of a train, opened, and German police not SS, but police were talking to these people, stop the train. They always had to stop. I don't know whether they had to fill up with water, the locomotive, so it stopped and I looked in. Believe me I hold the bucket of water for I thought first class, all Germans and they talked to each other. I was smart enough to know which is an SS man, which is a policeman. I had a kind of education over the years. So, I was educated in this respect, so I go ahead and I take a look at it. I hide my water and take a look what's going on and I look in there. They were wearing medals. There were beautiful people, , so a German, I hesitated, he's going to get like everybody ten marks get in there and bring him the water. I took the water out and I started giving they had like little cubicles. I walked over to one man and he was religious, religious Jews were they called it, and I recognized that he's Jewish and all of a sudden I look at the rest of the people and all of a sudden I knew they were Jewish, because the guy who was the head, a little guy next to him, he asked me in German , So I told me slowly , Means a killing place in German. So, I kind of mentioned him. But I was very scared saying it when they said , | just jumped off the train with my empty bucket. I spilled the water and I ran as far as I could. I know my heart was crying because I knew in a couple two or three hours nothing will be out of them. They must have been VIPs from Vienna. Some of them had medals. In other words some of them must have been soldiers in the Austrian army. This was the last time I went through to the trains. I was really afraid. But when I found out at this time really about the Holocaust.

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